Pets: The Forgetten Victims

Discussion in 'Drugs, Alcohol & Tobacco' started by Starjet, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    As to the confiscation of my meth, at every point of the confiscation you will initiate force, at the manufacturer, at selller, at me. Furthermore, collecting taxes to detox me and treat me will also require you to use force to collect those taxes.

    Any way you look at it, you are initiating force. By what moral principle?
     
  2. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you take meth, you have an excellent chance of becoming a useless addict, worse than useless actually, and then a thief and then a burglar, to feed your habit. You become a menace. Call it collective self defense by the community, through elected representatives, if you need a moral principle. I would also argue that we are saving you from early death, just as we would be doing by luring you off of a bridge, by deception if necessary, if you were contemplating suicide.

    I would also argue that since hospitals are legally obligated to admit you when you overdose, and since the hospitals will be paid by people like me, not people like useless meth addicts, we have a fiscal responsibility to confiscate your meth and to imprison whoever dealt it to you.

    I actually believe that meth dealers deserve extremely stiff penalties, again as a matter of self defense.
     
  3. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, including my property rights. If you take meth, you will lose your job, but you will still need your meth. And you'll need money to pay for it. Eventually you will burglarize my house. Or someone else's. Unless you are arrested and forced into detox ... or prison if you refuse to clean it up. Doesn't offend my sense of liberty in the slightest.

    During the later stages of addiction, crystal meth users may become so preoccupied with getting their next fix that their lives essentially fall apart. Friends and family may become virtually non-existent to them. Careers fall to the wayside, and health and appearance often become neglected-so much so, in fact, that the addict might seem unrecognizable to loved ones.
    https://www.recovery.org/topics/crystal-meth-addictive/
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not debating that that's not a valid argument. However, what about other people who can't work for some other reason? Isn't the same also still true about them ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  5. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And when those very same free men figger out that peddling a highly addictive drug to an unsuspecting population is guaranteed to be a money maker for them despite the personal devastation that addiction causes, its all okee dokee cause that is capitalism at its very finest.

    Allow the distribution of a product that is designed to addict repeat users without appropriate restrictions is criminally idiotic.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But proceeding from there, the questions are what should the level of punishment be and whom exactly should be punished.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  7. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    Isn't what true? That the innocently unemployed may turn to theft and burglary? I suppose.

    Whatever it is that is keeping you from being healthy and productive we need to address for your own as well as society's good. In the case of the meth addict, it starts with confiscating his meth.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, that seems a tad paternalistic, but okay, I guess it's justified, I suppose.

    Do we also get to lock up women who've had ten abortions?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  9. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you sit in your room and smoke meth and never become a danger to others, then nothing gives me the right. But you won't do that because you can't do that if you are a meth addict. If you disagree then you don't know what meth is.

    Sitting in your room and eating ice cream all day is bad for you, but it's not going to kill you or cost you your job, and most importantly it presents no threat to me or to my property, so I don't care if you do so.
     
  10. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, I think we should just execute them. Without a trial or anything. It logically follows form my opposition to meth.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    well, if we can tell people what they can't put into their body, it logically follows that we should be able to tell them what they're not allowed to take out of their body

    or say if they put something in their body, they're not allowed to take something out, to be more logically precise

    If, like you stated, something's preventing her from being healthy and productive and is negatively affecting society's good, why not?
    It is, whether you want to recognize it or not, a valid parallel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  12. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    The current penalties are about right, though I'd increase them substantially for distribution of kilo quantities of meth. The first time user in my state (Texas) is guaranteed a probated sentence by law (no jail time, period), and reality is that if he is caught a second or even a third time with mere user amounts, like a gram or less, he'll get probation again. with a condition that he get treated. We are one of the most conservative states in the country.
     
  13. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    If an action threatens your life (removing your liver for fun) or another (the baby in the case of abortion), then I have no objection to its prohibition by your local community.

    A harder question to me is this: can society legally/morally/ethically prohibit alcohol? I come down against prohibition and in favor of mere regulation to be sure the booze and beer is not killing you or your customers or guests, or turning the majority of drinkers into dangerous addicts. It's a moot point, though, because alcohol is enmeshed in our culture going back thousands of years (unlike meth), and it includes wine, which is good for you. Old buddy (*hic*)

    https://www.prevention.com/health/healthy-living/health-benefits-of-red-wine
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What about an obligation to only punish acts that are clearly morally wrong?
    How do you feel about that argument?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  15. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    You see no difference between the USA, a constitutional republic, and the USSR under Stalin?
     
  16. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    Women can have abortions and go back to work the next day. It doesn't hurt me if a woman has an abortion, and it doesn't threaten me or my property.
     
  17. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't know what you mean. You may be positing an affirmative obligation of society to punish immoral acts, but you may instead mean a limitation on societal power, i.e. "we cannot punish an action unless it's immoral."

    I suspect you mean the latter, and I agree that we should generally leave people alone, and not punish things like swearing and gambling, for example, though we can punish people for neglecting their families due toe excessive gambling.

    Now picture a tribe of Indians on the plains at dawn ... Chief Big Crow says, "It's time for the hunt, brothers. We need to kill us a coupla heap big deer for dinner. And ... say, where's White Feather?"

    [Some Random Indian] "He's in his wigwam smoking peyote, Chief, and doesn't really feel like hunting today."

    [Chief Big Crow]: "Oh, well, if he doesn't feel like helping us, I guess it's okay. He has the right to take drugs and all. Who are we to pressure him? Or judge him? Hey, let's bring him a nice big piece of smoked venison after we hunt down a deer, kill, it, dress it, and cook it. Then we'll fluff up his pillows so he can have a nice long nap."
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  18. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    I support limits on abortion because I don't like murdering babies, not because it's bad for the woman, and anyway having an early stage abortion isn't bad for the woman. They're back at work the next day to my knowledge. In no case is taking meth "okay" for the user.
     
  19. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Nobody loves freedom more than I do, but the use and abuse of drugs isn't freedom, it's license. The right to do that which is moral and proper = freedom
    The right to do that which is immoral and improper = license

    So, the rights to speak, publish, peaceably assemble, practice your religion, get a fair and speedy trial, bear arms, etc. = freedom.
    The "rights" to do drugs, cheat on your wife, buy the services of a prostitute, obtain an abortion, get a no-fault divorce, etc. = license.

    I support the former and oppose the latter.


    Here's the "right" you are defending, and its costs, and this is happening with the drugs being illegal. Imagine how many more you'd see like this if heroin was legal. Are you seriously suggesting society has no interest in preventing this?

    [​IMG]
    http://www.abc-7.com/story/33058229/4-year-old-found-in-suv-with-parents-passed-out-on-heroin
     
  20. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I like that idea. If they want to kill themselves give them the means, and somewhere to do it. Problem sorted!
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  21. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    After all of that, it still boils down to my life, not yours.

    And again, it does not matter what action an individual takes, no authority, no collective, no State—be it an Ayatollah murdering gays, a society imprisoning drug users and dealers, or a tyrant enslaving and robbing the productive— has no moral right to point a gun at any soul for any reason.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  22. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Simple solution to simple problem—put robbers, rapists and murders in jail. No longer a problem. The problem isn’t meth, the problem is it’s illegal to sell and buy. Make it legal and fewer will have to cheat, lie, steal, and murder to obtain it. For those that do, put them in jail.

    We don’t make it illegal to sell cars just because individuals steal them for money, thrills, and fun, do we? And it’s not illegal to sell and buy cars even though car accidents kill 40,000+ per year and injure thousands more. So...make drugs legal.
     
  23. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    What can I say? We disagree. Meth turns people into human excrement.

    You have a right to life, but not to death. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is not the same as "death, bondage, and the pursuit of misery") .

    I don't say the same of alcohol, cocaine or marijuana. Heroin I have mixed feelings about, but if you bring kilo quantities of meth for sale into a community, I favor flogging (as in Singapore), 1 lash for every kilo, followed by 25 years minimum in prison, with no parole.

    Obviously we aren't talking users here: I favor the current policy of supervision + treatment for addicts, not prison, and I would defer, if sorrowfully, to the majority if it ever voted to fully legalize meth.

    But I can't imagine that anything close to a majority, in any state, will ever vote to fully legalize the distribution of meth.
     
  24. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    So speaks the tyranny of the mob. That’s the moral principle you wish to embrace? The mob’s lust for power vs the individuals right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of justice? I pray not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  25. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Silly, of course you have the right to destroy or end your life. It’s your life. It is astonishing how many individuals get themselves so morally twisted over such a simple and easy principle as the right of individual to choose the life he wants.

    No, drugs will not be made legal in my time, or perhaps never on this planet. In order for such a thing to take place man needs a rebirth of reason, a new enlightenment of indpendent thought, a thorough knowledge and respect of the sanctity of each and every soul’s sovereignty over its existence. When and if this happens, there will no desire to enact and enforce drug laws...and more likely than not, very little desire to use them recklessly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
    Aleksander Ulyanov likes this.

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