Political Forum Debate #1

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by tecoyah, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Incorrect, I personally want all restrictions on abortion removed.

    What mix, everything stated in my comments deals solely with American law.
     
  2. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Not a single thing I cited was English law.

    Really, care to expand on why it "makes no sense at all"? .. Quite happy to undertake a (civil) debate on this specific subject if you wish to.
     
  3. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since when do we have to argue from the USA's laws??? There *is* a world outside your borders, you know.


    You might want to look up the effects pregnancy can have on a woman's body.
     
  4. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This was between him and you. Why did you cite English law books?
     
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    That poster will ignore science and facts and declare, from his own observation :roflol:, that women do not have any effects from pregnancy...
     
  6. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I didn't
     
  7. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Probably personal experience from his last pregnancy.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I realize when it comes to babies, they truly harm women and of course no woman should ever want one. :roll:
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) You did say us interlopers would be ridiculed and he makes it so easy :)

    - - - Updated - - -

    What a ridiculous thing to say! You think babies harm women and don't think women should want one!!!What!!! Man! You seem confused!!!!
     
  10. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again...obviously due to your personal experience from your pregnancies. However they were your own experiences and fall into the same category as opinion....not important to the general population.
     
  11. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why did you argue FOR a position you really do not believe in?
     
  12. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because I have done this long enough to know their position better than they do and to prove that they can debate it with civility and rational, non emotional skill that comes off far more useful and pleasant. Also to activate the official PF Debate system that has been talked about endlessly and never actually done.
     
  13. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I made a mistake. Your flags of country are UK and without seeing if those books you used came from there, I assumed they had. I made a bad call. I apologize for the error on my part

    Since I addressed you back, may I learn from you where you came up with the doctrine that fetus harms the mother? I can't locate anything like that in law.

    I have beliefs that a doctor might not see this the way a lawyer might see it. Are you a lawyer?

    I did locate material on harming the baby though.

    http://thegrio.com/2012/05/08/will-it-hurt-the-baby-answers-to-common-pregnancy-questions/

     
  14. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When you do not believe in your own argument, naturally you will be totally civil.

    I tend to stay from this argument in part because I do believe as much in the right of the unborn child as one did believe in the right of a slave.

    As the father of two daughters, and the step father to 8 other kids, it pains me to read people acting as if the unborn is just nothing. nothing to protect and very little to cherish.
     
  15. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting, I have NEVER resorted to being unpleasant and have debated the Pro-Choice position for many years. Being the father of four and never so much as considering abortion in my life it not so much pains me as disappoints me to see people so egotistical as to think their personal opinion should be used to direct the lives of perfect strangers they will never know or meet. I also find the dismissal of a fellow citizens right to their body and privacy to be disgusting...for ANY reason.

    But, this does not mean said opinion is not valid and heartfelt to the opponent.
     
  16. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have me wrong.

    I never told you I want my opinion imposed on anybody.

    But I do want the lawmakers to protect unborn children.

    When a man murders a woman, I also am fully in favor of laws though the dead woman no longer can be harmed.

    As you say, you have never been through an abortion. It is quite simple when one talks only in the abstract.
     
  17. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was going to let this pass, but tell me, don't you see the way you are uncivil to me in your statement back?

    I will tell you this, I am pro freedom. I am very anti Government telling us what to do. But in my case, I see a child. And somebody has to speak up for them. I don't get nasty back though I find the insults flow my way. Even in this very thread, I have seen a number of insults directed at me.
     
  18. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    no problem at all.

    From an excellent book called "Breaking the Abortion Deadlock: From Choice to Consent - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Breaking-Abortion-Deadlock-Choice-Consent/dp/0195091426 and personal email correspondences with its author - Eileen McDonagh - http://www.iq.harvard.edu/people/eileen-mcdonagh who was willing to answer many of the questions raised by pro-lifers here.

    no I am not a lawyer, and even doctors use language that alludes to the fetus injuring a female, such as -

    "During implantation, fetally derived cells (trophoblast) invade the maternal endometrium and remodel the endometrial spiral arteries into low-resistance vessels that are unable to constrict. This invasion has three consequences. First, the fetus gains direct access to its mother's arterial blood. Therefore, a mother cannot reduce the nutrient content of blood reaching the placenta without reducing the nutrient supply to her own tissues. Second, the volume of blood reaching the placenta becomes largely independent of control by the local maternal vasculature. Third, the placenta is able to release hormones and other substances directly into the maternal circulation. Placental hormones, including human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human placental lactogen (hPL), are predicted to manipulate maternal physiology for fetal benefit. " - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8115596

    Invade - Enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, especially with intrusive effect.
    (of a parasite or disease) spread into (an organism or bodily part)
    Encroach or intrude on

    The other point is that the whole abortion debate has now gone beyond what doctors can or cannot do, it has become predominately a legal issue.
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is one of the problems with some individuals (usually religious). they tend to consider anything stated in rebuttal to be attack and get upset because of it. As an example. if you are religious you just likely took offense to my comment when your persecution complex kicked in. My comments to you have been very civil, direct, honest and thoughtful. Any insult you feel is a result of your own sensitivity and is not my doing.
    How is it pro-freedom to want government to impose restrictions on a fellow citizen because you do not agree with them?
     
  20. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most who argue do not use books of law to use as part of their refuting arguments.

    It made me wonder given I have studied law in college. Not criminal law, but some law specialties and business law.

    The woman author you speak of has an opinion.

    We each of us has an opinion. Citing books can't explain what I call heart.

    Take people in other nations for instance. To them, your life is not worth a thing. They would cut off your head or toss you off a building with not a thought it might be wrong.

    This issue might need for the male party, actual personal experience with abortion to find out what is really happening. If they still don't care about the unborn, they may not be reachable.

    Men who have not personally picked up the woman post abortion from the abortionists clinic, though clinic does not really say the truth, since it is more a death ward, than a clinic, may not understand that the woman was seriously injured in the abortion. And it takes a woman a day to two days to show she is recovering.

    Then there is the damage to her heart and her brain. She can't stop thinking of the child she killed. And she feels very personal that she killed her child. We have the rarer woman who does not mind killing her kids. They can be 8-10 years old and she kills them. We hear of cases like this on occasion.

    Anyway, now I see where you get some of your ideas.
     
  21. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Rebuttals are not an attack. But making snarky remarks against a person, as you clearly did are attacks.

    And now you attribute to me being Christian as my reason even though you never were told that even remotely could be a reason. And now you claim I have a persecution complex too.

    I suppose women have a persecution complex who object to the words Trump used 11 years ago?

    When you make it personal, it can be an attack. If I start doing what you are doing by questioning your character, you most likely would feel attacked too.

    Again, my aim is to save human lives.

    I don't get to make laws, but I sure can speak up for laws. And let the system work.

    I have to wonder if you have taken a woman to get an abortion and been there to bring her home?

    A decent rebuttal does not include an examination of what drives me. It sticks to the ideas under discussion.

    Another thing motivating my comments. I have driven them there and home. And saw the suffering. And it lasted longer than the physical part lasted.
     
  22. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I disagree, most people have an opinion and then research that opinion to see if it is correct or to see where it fails, my opinion on abortion was very much pro-choice before I even heard of that book or it's author .. I was in my younger years very much pro-life .. but, I am a person who researches from both sides of the debate in order to better understand and to help formulate better arguments, my research while pro-life showed me that my position was fundamentally wrong.

    Not just an opinion, but an opinion that is backed up with numerous citations and solid research.

    The emotional side of the debate doesn't achieve anything, emotions are not rational.

    your comment only adds weight to the reality that a life only has the value another places upon it .. that is true for everyone, including you, and also provides further evidence that morality is pretty much subjective.

    and what makes you think I have no personal experience of the issue?

    I have done more than just picked up a woman from a clinic, as to the "seriously injured" part, you seem to forget that this is an injury she has consented to .. just as open heart surgery is a serious injury that has been consented to.

    I'm afraid you are wrong, studies show that women who have abortions are by far less likely to suffer mental anguish than those forced to follow a pregnancy to its conclusion, women who are force to give birth often feel a great deal of resentment towards the child.

    No my ideas were well in place prior to reading that book, that book merely gave me some of the facts to use in debates.
     
  23. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I find the highlighted part confusing, you have answered me in a very personal way . .could I take some of your comments as an attack .. including making the assumption that I haven't had personal experience of abortions, and assuming my ideas are the result of reading a book?

    I have to say that in other discussions I have had with you - you do take offence very easily, even when no slight was meant or intended.
     
  24. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have A Nice Day:smile:
     
  25. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First, I am not here to debate the merits of my case vs yours nor get you to defend your side.

    I called it a dog and pony show and am entirely accurate. The supposed thesis was it was a real debate.

    But both sides totally agree. Always were in agreement.

    Now you tell me you switched from being in favor of preserving life to terminating life.

    Fine and you also read some books.

    A person who forms a view and has put tons of time into verifying a position, naturally has more arguments to toss at posters than those who have not looked at it as a view obtained from books.

    To me it is personal. To you it sounds academic if I may say so and you not take that as an insult.

    I next move to your rebuttal of Tecoya insulting me
     

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