POLL: Can one be loyal to two countries?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by rangecontraction, Jul 4, 2015.

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POLL: Can one be loyal to two countries?

  1. YES

    16 vote(s)
    59.3%
  2. NO

    11 vote(s)
    40.7%
  1. rangecontraction

    rangecontraction New Member

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    I am a loyal American-Israeli dual national. I support American wars against the Islamic Terrorist Enemy (such as ISIS, Al-Quaeda) and I support Israel's wars against the Islamic Terrorist Enemy (such as Hamas).

    I feel that its perfectly feasible to be loyal to two countries.

    Do you?
     
  2. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Where would your loyalties lie if America went to war with Israel? That's the biggest test IMHO. It's not too difficult to have dual loyalties when your countries are allies on the same page. Its sort of different when they are at war with each other.

    I know plenty of people with dual citizenship and while the majority of them consider themselves and refer to themselves as American I have met a few who still remained loyal to their home nations more so than America even while living here.

    I used to date a girl many years ago who was a Russian immigrant. She had a fierce loyalty to her home nation which is perfectly fine and understandable. I love my home nation too. She grew up as a girl in the Soviet Union and her father was a Soviet pilot. Her and I would always talk about the pride we had for our countries and whatnot and we would even play video games against each other where she was Russia and I was America. I'd always give her crap about how we would beat Russia up in a war because they aren't the Soviets anymore and all that. Shed always just say wait and see Russia will rise again they are rebuilding and will be a super power once more. All in good fun. But one day I did ask her flat out what she would do if we America and Russia ever went to war, she said without hesitation that she would go home and fight for her country against us (and that she would sneak me food and water if I ever got captured by the Russians during the war lol).

    I don't exactly agree with her position but I tried to understand it I guess...Part of me does have an issue with that though. You live in America for a reason, you chose to come here and leave your home nation for one reason or another and its usually because America is better than wherever you came from because if it wasn't then you would have stayed there. Yet you would fight against us...I do have a bit of an issue with that to be honest.
     
  3. AR4137

    AR4137 New Member

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    I think you certainly can. Though it's much easier if the two countries are allies, or at least have no grudge with one another.

    I think you can be loyal to both countries, and if it really came down to having to choose- perhaps the two countries started a war with one another- it would be a matter of deciding what your values are. Which country represents what you stand for, who was "in the right" when the war started (to your understanding), etc.?

    I know a Swedish immigrant who came here when he was already in his early-mid twenties or so. He's one of the most patriotic Americans I've met and he wasn't even born here. Yet he still loves his home country with just as much sincerity too, and he travels back and forth between the two constantly. He talks about both with the same kind of respect.

    I don't hold any dual citizenship myself, but it's similar to any other situation in which your loyalties are divided. For me, it'd be like choosing between my parents or something, but I really have nothing else to compare it to.

    So in short, yes, you can definitely be loyal to more than one country at a time.
     
  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    one cannot serve to masters.

    one is either loyal to the USA, or Israel.

    or to the USA or Canada.

    what do you do if the military or political interests of the two nations conflict? who do you choose?

    dual citizenship should be illegal, as it puts one in the difficult positions as having to choose between two allegiances.

    and it can be used to blackmail one into committing treason or spying for the other country. Look at Jonathan Pollard.
     
  5. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not when the two countries find their interests opposed.




     
  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    imagine having dual citizenship with the USA and Russia, for example.

    Russia could blackmail you to spy on the USA for them, commit terrorist attacks for them, etc
     
  7. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The U.S. places limits on dual citizenship. If you apply for citizenship in another country, serve in their army, or government you are assumed to have renounced your U.S. citizenship.

    One of the few ways a U.S. citizen can become a dual citizen of another nation is by marriage or birth. If your Italian citizenship is a right of birth, then marry a U.S. citizen you get to keep both. But if you were born here and apply for a citizenship in another nation you become only a citizen of that new nation.

    Even with that special case there are unfriendly nations where we flat out refuse to acknowledge dual citizenship. Russia might be one.





     
  8. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    i agree, if you are an American citizen and then go to Israel, become a citizen, and serve in their armed forces, you should immediately and automatically lose your American citizenship.

    but for some reason I think the USA doesn't enforce this rule clearly stated in our passports, due to political pressure.
     
  9. rangecontraction

    rangecontraction New Member

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    The wonderful thing about dual American-Israeli citizenship is that when we eventually go to war with Iran, I can support both sides at the SAME time. Why? Because both the USA and Israel will be liberating Iran.
     
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    dual-citizenship means people will always question who you are REALLY loyal to.

    i could never be a dual-citizen, as I love my country the USA more than any other country.
     
  11. rangecontraction

    rangecontraction New Member

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    I love USA and Israel and will support both in the war against Iran and Syria.
     
  12. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and who do you support when the USA says all the settlements are ILLEGAL and the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem is ILLEGAL?
     
  13. rangecontraction

    rangecontraction New Member

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    USA would never do this. The heroic Americans love Israel and appreciate its right to expand settlements and kill Hamas Terrorists in Gaza. Last time we went into Gaza, the collateral damage was huge, and the USA gave Israel more weapons to continue to hunting of Hamas. 66 heroic Israeli soldiers, 5 patriotic Israeli civilians (including one child) and one unfortunate Thai civilian were murdered by the Palestinian Terrorists.
     
  14. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Only with Israel are right wingers so willing to betray their own country. Israel has spied on our government and citizens - they violate human rights' laws and treaties. And Americans proudly say they are loyal to Israel as equally as they are to the US and the right wing cheer leads them on.
     
  15. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all the settlements are illegal, according to official American policy.

    this includes all the settlers in East Jerusalem
     
  16. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You had Americans who went to Spain and fought for the Spanish Republican forces in their army against the rebel factions. Before we became involved in WWII, way before Pearl Harbor Americans of the Flying Tigers were fighting the Japanese on China's side. Americans pilots went to England and enlisted in the Royal Air Force to fight the Germans also before our entry into that war. The same in Cuba before the Spanish American War where Americans went their and fought for the rebels against the Spanish and on and on.

    No action was ever taken against them for fighting in another countries army or armed forces. We today are letting Americans go fight for ISIS and letting them return. I am sure they are a whole lot more loyal to ISIS than America.
     
  17. tomfoo13ry

    tomfoo13ry Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nope. A US citizen does not automatically lose US citizenship when applying for citizenship of another nation. It has to be explicitly renounced by the individual in order for it to be taken away.
     
  18. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The application has to be accepted and you have to be over 18. Once it is accepted by the foreign state, your actions in applying are interpreted to be an explicit renunciation of your U.S. citizenship. (*)




     
  19. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    As for I know there are countries with laws allowing multiple citizenship. If you are citizen of countries allowing multiple citizenship ... there's no problem. Italy allows double citizenship.

    Israel allows its citizens to have double [or even multiple] citizenship.

    It seems that also US allow that ... http://travel.state.gov/content/tra...ip-and-dual-nationality/dual-nationality.html so, where is the problem?
     
  20. tomfoo13ry

    tomfoo13ry Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    *sigh* This is such an easy question to research...yet you still chose not to bother. I guess I'll do the leg work for you, because I'm an enabler. Here ya' go.

    From the State Department:
    "In order to lose U.S. nationality, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign nationality voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. nationality."

    Which is exactly what I said, the individual has to specifically give up their citizenship...it isn't automatically lost simply by a foreign government accepting an application.

    From the LA Times:
    "Yet dual citizenship has been specifically sanctioned by the United States Supreme Court. In 1967, the court ruled that the State Department had violated the Constitution when it refused to issue a new U.S. passport to a U.S. citizen who had voted in an election in Israel. The decision overturned a law saying that "a person, who is a national of the United States, whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voting in a political election in a foreign state.""
    Hmmm, apparently what you consider to be the state of the law today was actually declared unconstitutional nearly 50 years ago....Interesting.

    Also see:
    Kawakita v. United States where the Supreme Court in 1952 held that even though a native-born US citizen fought against the US during WWII, he still retained his US citizenship. This man tortured US GIs and the SCOTUS held that he still didn't lose his citizenship, yet you claim that all it takes to lose citizenship is for a foreign government to accept an application.

    So, like I originally said, a person has to show actual intent, as in he has to purposely denounce his citizenship to lose it. It isn't some automatic thing triggered when the appropriate red-tape is cut as you assert.

    Sorry, but you are dead wrong on this one.
     
  21. tomfoo13ry

    tomfoo13ry Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Exactly. Interestingly, even though I've never stepped foot in Italy, Italy considers me an Italian citizen since my grandparents never renounced their Italian citizenship. All I would have to do is fill out some paperwork and I'd be a dual citizen...and there would be no international crisis nor would the US strip me of my citizenship as many here erroneously believe or at least wish to be the case.

    Haters gonna' hate is what it boils down to. People treat nationality like a religion nowadays.
     
  22. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I remember this one. Good reminder that voting in a foreign election is no longer one of the ways your actions are automatically interpreted as a renunciation of U.S. citizenship and also that if you fight hard enough, you may be able to win against one of those letters from the state department.




     
  23. tomfoo13ry

    tomfoo13ry Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, but it's mainly a reminder that simply applying for and being granted citizenship by another country does not in any way revoke your US citizenship. A person can only renounce their citizenship intentionally and deliberately. It's settled law.
     
  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    why would anyone want to be a citizen of two nations?

    citizenship means you swear allegiance to a state.

    one cannot swear allegiance to two states, or be loyal to two states, its just impossible.

    one will someday have to choose between the two, and will then be committing treason against the other.

    one should be be a citizen of one state, and a permanent resident of another.
     
  25. tomfoo13ry

    tomfoo13ry Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    blah, blah, blah...no, it is not a foregone conclusion that a dual citizen will "someday have to choose between the two," and then commit treason. That's just your overactive imagination.
     

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