Poor Britannia!

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Jeannette, Aug 24, 2020.

  1. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    pride: feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.

    As a human (Brits are human), I am proud of their accomplishments advancing the human race. Does this offend you?
     
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  2. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Patriotism and nationalism are not impulses. These are emergent properties of human social systems.

    National anthems have a double role: as a mean to satisfy desires related to affiliation and membership (protection offered by the group), and as an object of - or a conduit for - worship, satisfying the need for the experience of sacred (which constitutes an element in the structure of the consciousness, thus unavoidable).

    I'm not sure that people choose to invest in a song. It's human nature to invest, struggle, and improve. Not really a choice.
     
  3. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know much about them. Can you tell me something they did that would make me proud of them? If there is something, I would enjoy learning about it. I love learning the histories of other countries, but I'll admit I don't know a lot about Botswana except that they were a british colony until the 60s I think.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  4. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    they have one of the fastest growing economies in the world and are from the region in africa that had aparthied, so theyre newly independent and free of white rule.
     
  5. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well then good on them. I can be proud of them for that. Is that still a sin?
     
  6. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    who are you proud of and for what reason, can you say it though?
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  7. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    A random selection makes me proud of creations like Spinal Tap and the Simpsons and Tim Berners Lee giving away his creation of the World Wide Web for free.
     
  8. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am proud of the people of Botswana for successfully governing themselves and for having a booming economy. Also for their battling poachers in their fight to save the African Elephants and rhinos. That is a rare and precious gift they have their. I hope they can preserve and expand the populations of their wildlife.
     
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  9. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hahaha, I LOVE spinal tap. "but this one goes to 11". Classic. And all of Monty Python is a treasure, lol.
     
  10. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    during apartheid, the trade in Ivory, Rhino Horns and Hippos Teeth decimated the populations.
     
  11. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A truly horrible thing, right up there with the destruction of the buffalo herds in the USA and hunting blue whales to near extinction. I'm trying to start a career helping to preserve and expand habitats for wildlife, and these issues are near and dear to me.
     
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  12. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    The concept of human nature tends to be elusive and defined on the hoof. Much like the concept of Britishness.
     
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  13. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    dont give up!
     
  14. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I won’t. I’m in the learning stage now. I’m in my 3rd year of my wildlife ecology degree after retiring from the military. We’ll see where that leads me.
     
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  15. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    No, the concept is very well defined. Although there are different perspectives (not mutually exclusive in all aspects) regarding the fundamental nature of humans, there's no denying that such fundamental nature exists.
     
  16. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. Phenomenologically there is a concept of human nature.
    What human nature actually is, as in the desire to explore, or experiment or be aggressive or conciliatory is open to debate, certainly what the main drivers are in 'human nature' is open to debate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  17. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think the Greek word περήφανη (perifani) equates more with 'arrogance' than pride, since 'peri' means above, and 'fani' means to appear. When loosely translated it would mean to appear or consider yourself above others (a snob). To have pride in oneself doesn't mean that a person necessarily feels above others. Only that they don't see themselves inferior to others - which no one should.

    It's sort of like the noun 'nationalism' in contrast to 'patriotism'. Patriotism means to love and have pride in your nation which is a virtue, while 'nationalism' is to see your ethnicity or culture above others and that's a sin.
     
  18. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Some aspects are open to debate, other aspects are well known.

    Back to the topic: I don't like anthems and patriotic songs any more than you do. I'm aware of their emotional impact, I feel it, but I don't let it take over. Unlike you, I think such manifestations of patriotism are necessary to keep the society homogeneous and loyal (to each other, not to the government). Large stable social groups offer better protection to individuals than small unstable groups, that's why keeping the cohesion of the large group is paramount.
     
  19. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Too many times people only look at the negative aspects of a culture and people, never the positive. Britain in contrast to others during the same era, has an awful lot of positives. Their influence was immense - and beneficial.

    This doesn't mean that some of their past actions wouldn't shock people today - and believe me I know the worse.
     
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  20. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    Gosh I doubt you are in America. Sounds like you're describing socialism!
    The initiative of this thread was about removing the singing of the words of 'Rule Britannia' at the last night of the Proms.
    There is an argument to say such a thing creates division as much as loyalty.
     
  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As long as something doesn't go to a person's head - and believe me I've seen people whose heads are so swollen that their eyes literally bulge out, then why not be happy about your nation's achievements.
     
  22. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I'm not in America.

    Socialism demands loyalty to authorities. I'm talking about belonging to the group. Many groups have their own symbols, like fraternities or football fans.

    Regarding the topic, the singing itself was removed due to the pandemic. The source of the fake news about the alleged removal of Rule Britannia from the repertoire forever is Sputnik, a propaganda outlet of the Kremlin. Such propaganda uses the power of symbols over minds and hearts to create division and strife within the UK.

    You, of course, have the right to dislike patriotism and its symbols, and to say so openly. However, this right wouldn't exist if the larger group wasn't strong enough to survive individual dissent, and the group wouldn't be strong enough without the stability offered by possession of territory, safe borders, social and cultural cohesion. Patriotism and, to a certain extent, nationalism, are basic ingredients for a stable society.
     
  23. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sputnik never wrote that Rule Britannia would be removed forever, it was just stating the facts as they were being discussed on ITV's Good Morning Britain on Monday. Obviously the BBC reconsidered and decided on removing only the words. Same thing! If the lyrics aren't sung, then it means nothing in the hearts of the British. The discussion on ITV did state that it was because of racism.

    What symbols? Do you mean the song Rule Britannia? Why should it create strife when it's been sung for at least 150 years? I should think it would foster unity among all the people of Britain, the same way our patriotic hymns and songs united the American people.

    The only thing that would bring about strife is when people are being hindered from expressing themselves. It's called tyranny!
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  24. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    No. The debate on ITV was just an exchange of opinions, which Sputnik chose to present as a final and irreversible decision to ditch the songs altogether.

    ITV:
    https://www.itv.com/thismorning/articles/nigel-farage-and-femi-oluwole-debate-rule-britannia-row

    Sputnik:
    Spot the difference. Can't Sputnik tell debate from decision, or won't Sputnik tell debate from decision?

    Not the first time Sputnik is caught lying. Facebook removed recently over 300 pages and accounts linked to Sputnik, for fake news and propaganda.
    https://about.fb.com/news/2019/01/removing-cib-from-russia/

    Oh, please. The propaganda is designed to bring strife and division, not the songs.
     
  25. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What lies and what propaganda is Sputnik saying? All I see is elaboration - which is what writers are supposed to do. Me thinks you project too much. As for Facebook, seems censorship of opposing views is endemic lately - even on social media.

    Anyway, every writer and newspaper has their slant on things - that's to be expected and taken into account. I used to read the New York Times when I was young, and I knew it was liberal and I didn't agree with their views, but I didn't consider it propaganda. It was just their slant on things. What I wanted was information, and that's what it gave me.

    Today I wouldn't touch the New York Times or any other MSM because the writers and editors have no opinion. They all write exactly the same thing and worse, they leave out the same things. So they have ceased to be informative, and have become propaganda sheets.

    At least Sputnik and RT are informative, and will give some news - if not much.
     

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