Post proof a god exists.

I got an idea.

For those members who like to argue that there in fact DOES exist scientific evidence that a GOD exists can post such scientific evidence on this topic.

I will read all examples and if any have even the smallest bit of scientific evidence I will post such members post is a VIABLE EXAMPLE OF SCIENTIFIC PROOF GOD EXISTS.

I will also post the opposite for examples that have no evidence.

I will do this in a scientific manner and NO members post will be ignored nor will any members post be judged unfairly or illogically....THAT I promise.

AboveAlpha

 

WOW!!!

Not a SINGLE POST by anyone!!!

I find it amusing that there always exists so many highly religious members who post opposition to many things on the Forum such as posting opposition to Abortion...opposition to Evolution....opposition to Prayer in School not being allowed...opposition to Religious Statues being removed from State and Federal Buildings...etc.

Yet when I give such people an opportunity to post EVIDENCE OF GOD....a GOD they site as being the REASON they are in opposition to all these things mentioned....well....I guess it doesn't surprise me.

AboveAlpha

 

About an HOUR as gone by and STILL NOT ONE POST!! LOL!!

Well....that alone should tell us something.

AboveAlpha

 

An hour isn't long. I didn't even see this thread until now, for example.

 

I think you will have a very long wait lol

 

Are you a Physicist who could possibly know enough to approve the right answers???

You don't undestand the Copenhagen Interpretation of a requiredObserver of Big Bang wave functions to collapse them into a material universe.

So how good could you be at this task???

 

While I wouldn't trust the OP as final arbiter on all things sciencey, it has nonetheless been shown quite comprehensively that the one who doesn't understand the implications of the Copenhagen Interpretation is you.

 

I have multiple degrees one of which is specific to Particle Physics and it is a FACT that an observer is NOT required in order for a QUANTUM SYSTEM to exist as it is in essence a MUST for no observer to EVER observe the inner workings of a 100 or 1000 QUIBIT QUANTUM COMPUTER as if this is done the Quantum Computational System WILL NOT WORK!!!

Thus in essence since our very Universe and Multiverse exist as a Quantum System if such a system was OBSERVED upon all aspects of such a system WOULD COLLAPSE!!!

This would mean Quanta could NOT exist as both Particle and Wave and as well not be able to have more than one function or exist as having INDETERMINATE VALUE.

AboveAlpha

 

No, YOU don't understand the flaws of Copenhagen...even though, its been pointed out to you numerous times.

 

I may have quoted this before:
“A God who let us prove his existence would be an idol”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

Sadly a lot of theists, who think they can prove God’s existence, and a lot of atheists, who think they can disprove it, can’t grasp the poetic and spiritual depth of this sentence.

 

What a waste of bandwidth:
"Misconceptions about the nature and practice of science abound, and are sometimes even held by otherwise respectable practicing scientists themselves. I have dispelled some of them (misconceptions, not scientists) in earlier posts (for example, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beauty is only skin-deep, and you can’t judge a book by its cover). Unfortunately, there are many other misconceptions about science. One of the most common misconceptions concerns the so-called “scientific proofs.” Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof."

The above excerpted from http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

Would you like to try again?

 

So Buddah can be considered a God by you?
And the God of the bible, especially the OT, wants to be an idol. Even the NT, as one is to worship this God and nothing else. Sounds like an idol to me.
What would be the purpose of being so mystique? Especially as the christian religion and muslim religion will have one in eternal damnation for all eternity if one chooses not to believe what is such a mystique.

 

There is no proof. There never will be. You choose to believe in a god or deity because you want to.

Belief isn't necessarily dependant on fact. Faith is trust in your belief. If there was proof that a god or deity existed, there wouldn't be religion or faith or belief there would just be facts. Basically put if you proved a god existed, gods would become science.

 

Science is a Method.

Let's take a look at the Sciences of Theology and Mathematics.

Now....in the Science of Mathematics a PROOF of ADDITION is SUBTRACTION

Thus to prove 7 + 3 = 10....you do the REVERSE and take 10 - 3 = 7....thus by subtracting one get's their PROOF of Addition by Subtraction when using the Science of Mathematics.

Now in the Science of Theology....a PROOF of a person proposing that the King James Bible has many translations and such a person states such a Mistranslation occurred when the Hebrew in the Torah and Tanakh was improperly translated as it has been found that in the Tanakh Moses did NOT PART the Red Sea but in fact crossed the Reed Sea and the words Yam Suph which occurs 23 times in the Hebrew Tanakh detailing the story of Moses and the Hebrews leaving Egypt...23 times it states Moses and the Hebrews crossed the Yam Suph....which Yam Suph means the REED SEA which is the shallow tidal area between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea where they crossed at low tide and when the Egyptian Army crossed in pursuit of the Hebrews the tide came in and swamped them.

There was no giant walls of water over 1000 feet down being held back by some magic.

They simply crossed the Reed Sea which at low tide left less than an inch of water to the sandy bottom exposed at low tide.

Now using the Science of Theology to provide of PROOF that the words Yam Suph which means REED SEA are what the Hebrews CROSSED all one has to do is refer and reed what is written in the TANAKH...which is the book detailing that story and is the book that was used by the Roman Christians to CREATE THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Thus PROOFS can be established within the SCIENCES.

AboveAlpha

 

I have a proof of sorts:

Definition : a God is something that can control energy to a high level

We know that matter and energy transform back and forth at the sub-atomic level. A fusion bomb in fact is a matter to energy conversion E=MC^2

How living organisms differ from inanimate is that they have knowledge of their own existence. This is a strange thing when you think of it. Where does this knowledge come from, the matter, the energy or some combination of the two ?

It does not matter which we choose but assume it is the interaction of energy with matter.

What we know for sure is that there are some configurations of matter and energy that obtain knowledge of their own existence. "I think therefore I am"

If our simple configuration of matter and energy gained knowledge of its own existence then it stands to reason that there are higher order Energy/Matter interactions that also have attained knowledge of their own existence.

Since we exist such things must be possible and given infinity all possibilities eventually happen.

Therefor it seems not only likely but almost a mathematical certainty that some configuration of matter and energy with "Godlike powers" would arise.

Even more grandiose would be the suggesting that the universe itself is aware of its own existence or that in an infinite period of time the Universe would come to be aware of its own existence.

When I get out of the city lights on a clear night and look up into the sky it looks like one big brain.

 

LOL quoting a Psychologist blubbering on about "what is considered proof" in science is like listening to a Christian talking about Islam.

 

First of all I need to educate you about something so don't take offense.

MATTER....consists of Atomic Particles of MASS such as the Hadrons of Protons and Neutrons....and as well the Quantum Particle/Wave Fprms of ENERGY....the Electrons.

As well most people don't realize that since all the Atomic Particles of MASS in the Nucleus of usually Protons and Neutrons ARE COMPLETELY COMPRISED OF QUANTUM PARTICLE/WAVE FORMS OF ENERGY....such as Quarks, Gluons, Higgs-Bosons, Leptons...etc.

Thus MATTER IS COMPLETELY COMPRISED OF ENERGY.

Now you have made the mistake of saying and I quote..."How living organisms differ from inanimate is that they have knowledge of their own existence."...end quote Giftdedone.

Having knowledge of ones existence might exist in humans and many animals but as such lifeforms as Plants, Bacteria, Protozoa....etc....which exist in much more Metric Tonnage by FAR that ant Earth Life Forms that are sentient....this statement by you is easily dis-proven.

As to this statement of yours and I quote..."Therefor it seems not only likely but almost a mathematical certainty that some configuration of matter and energy with "Godlike powers" would arise."...end quote Giftedone....although this might be possible as far as a GODLIKE entity evolving from our Universal Reality....for such a GOD to exist as is advertised in Christian, Islamic and Jewish Religious Text such a GOD would have to FIRST exist then create the Universe or Multiverse....thus your Hypothesis would not fit into that category.

Another problem would be that in order for any Higher Being having the ability to both create the Universe or Multiverse and control it and know all outcomes such an entity would need to exist upon the exact same level of all Quantum Particle/Wave Forms existing in our Universe or Multiverse.

Basically that means a GOD would have to be at least as BIG and MASSIVE as the Universe for any GOD to rule and be able to calculate that Universe.

AboveAlpha

- - - Updated - - -

Good Try though!

AboveAlpha

 

Not so fast there fella ! My definition of God was not the same as the Christian definition. It only requires that some configuration of matter and energy (or perhaps the energy itself) gains knowledge of its own existence and is able to manipulate energy on a higher level.

I am not sure why you go into the long diatribe stating that matter is energy when I already stated that. I was trying to make it understandable to the layman.

In the fourth year of my undergrad I took a class on Quantum mechanics and yes .. muddled through Schrodinger wave equations and so on. What was clear is that our understanding of exactly what is going on at the sub-atomic level consists mostly of mathematical constructs. We can derive the ground state energy of hydrogen but when we get to helium the models do not work (due to shielding of the electron) and we have to resort to approximation models to fit the equations into the data.

Back to reality. To state "carte blank" that there is no possibility of some construction of matter an energy (or perhaps just pure energy) that has the ability to manipulate energy is simply not true.

You made some unintelligible comment about disproving my claim that entities other than humans could gain knowledge of their own existence but do not disprove it at all ?

There are forces in the universe which we are yet to understand. Only recently has the concept of dark matter come about for example.

It is also possible that there is an intelligence that has arisen from the universe itself being comprised of both matter and energy as we are. This could be very big or very small.

I do not think you have really considered the implications of existence and self awareness. Try this. Look at your index finger. Next make your index finger move.

Now explain to me how you did it.

 

I moved my finger bio-electrically

My post here asks people to post PROOF.

I am not asking for possibilities or probabilities as I certainly a degree of both exist.

Again...I am asking you to provide evidence that could PROVE a GOD exists.

AboveAlpha.

 

The existence of bioelecticity is the means by which your finger moved. How did you control this electricity.

I did provide evidence. Just as you are having trouble understanding my question on how you made your finger move ... you seem to be having similar trouble getting the ideas within my post on the existence of God.

Again. How did you make your finger move ? Your "bioelectricity" response was extremely lame and pissed me off to a degree because I have a higher opinion of you than that.

Please come up with a better response as there is a point here. If you can not then say "I give up" and I will give it to you.

 

I can’t think of any Buddhists who consider Buddha a God, so it would be rather odd if I did.

Sounds to me as if you don’t know what an idol is. I’ll drop you a clue: it’s a material object.
Also you may want to abandon your rather ahistorical reading of the OT. Reading it with historical context it you will not only find the rejection of man-made objects representing God(s), but you’ll see fine examples of how an ancient people developed a notion of monotheism. And I reckon Above alpha speaks about the monotheistic God here, who is most prominently worshipped in the Abrahamitic religions, but notions of whom as "the absolute" can also be found in others. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_absolute)

You are losing yourself in detail while painting this detail with a rather wide brush. Both Christianity and Islam also sport universalist schools of thought who aren’t that bothered about damnation. When Christianity and Islam assume God to be beyond human understanding they certainly don’t do it to portray God as a sadistic maniac or to appease Above Alpha, but for various theological/philosophical reasons. In Bonhoeffers case it would probably be the influence of Barth’s Dialectical Theology and its emphasis on transcendence with God being “the wholly other”. You won’t find such “wholly other” with neither a microscope or telescope, nor is it provable in other ways. For a broader view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_(religion)

To be fair: while I somehow doubt Incorporeal read and understood the whole text he quoted right up to the end, IMHO he actually made a point here.
In my home town’s university psychology is counted among the (empirical) sciences by the way, and in its theological faculties Christians and Muslims frequently speak about each other’s faith in comparative religion classes. So your ad hominem against the text's author seems to be pretty groundless to me.

 

Fair enough and I would rarely do that and agree with you.... but this Incorp.

 

Fair enough, but then God will be whatever one wants God to be. An individual God. And that is ok.

An idol to me is something worshipped. Most of the time a shrine/statue or something is erected to humanize the idol. And this definition seems to say what I thought. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idol

Well I'm not really into the unknown/unnatural/supernatural world. For I don't know it exists.
And it makes no sense to me to want a creation to follow something, but make it beyond the creations understanding. That, in my mind, is ridiculous. Especially if torture for eternity is a result.

My point was 2 differing religions with similar eternal places have differing means of getting to those places. And both think there way is the only way. And the religion that spawned those 2 religions doesn't have the same places. So, one has to conclude, much of the stuff is made up or if those transcendent places exist, those religions have it wrong at least partially in achieving the end.

 

So, I guess all attempts a proof have been abandoned for misrepresentations, new-age thought olympics and philisophical "what if"s. I guess, when that's all you are left with, it's what you do.

 

Sorry...I was tired when I replied to this post.

OK....some either internal thought or external sensory input will cause a person to chose to move their finger when it is in a non-reflexive action.

A signal triggering how and in what manner my finger will move travels travels from my brain along my nervous system to the muscles in my hand and finger that allow them to move and basically a bio-electrical current running to those muscles when encountering each specific muscle needed to move my finger in the manner I want it to will be applied to each individual muscle in the manner necessary for me to move that finger in any manner I chose and such a thing is a practiced art form unto itself as this is MUSCLE MEMORY....as a child must LEARN how to walk and move and this information is stored in the brain.

You did not prove evidence you provided a Hypothesis.

If you disagree with me then I would suggest you explain how this could be determined to be PROOF and not just proposing possible EVIDENCE as I do not believe that you have proven this Hypothesis to a point where it could be determined to even be evidence never mind PROOF a GOD exists.

Thanks,

AboveAlpha