Potential Alternatives to the Capitalist System

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by DarkSkies, Apr 1, 2016.

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  1. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    The idea for this thread is to have it serve as a place where people can post potential alternatives to the current capitalist economic system. This thread shall also welcome ideas on how to best transition from the current system to any other if a change were to take place.

    For anyone interested in why there should be alternatives in the first place, there will be an accompanying thread hosting reasons against capitalism. So, the focus of this thread will be alternative systems and not capitalism.

    The Case Against Capitalism
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley was shown that he had the job of introducing "Spiritualistic Capitolism."

    I do have some ideas on what might be meant by this........... both from a view that would appeal to the political right, conservatives.........…

    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...ations-should-print-their-own-currencies.html

    Large churches in democratic nations should print their own currencies.



    www.CalgaryDollars.ca/
    is a good example of how several dozen socially active residents of an area can begin what amounts to a second tier to the economy.

    The Ithaca Hour is an excellent example of a similar concept being applied in the United States.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours




    The Ithaca HOUR is a local currency used in Ithaca, New York and is the oldest and largest local currency system in the United States that is still operating.[1] It has inspired other similar systems in Madison, Wisconsin; Corvallis, Oregon;[2] and a proposed system in the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania.[3] One Ithaca HOUR is valued at US$10 and is generally recommended to be used as payment for one hour's work, although the rate is negotiable. Most North American churches have a desire to assist the poor and the oppressed. Well….. in 2014 efforts by a group of socially active Christians could easily transform dozens of homeless people into actors….. who are playing the role of homeless people….. and the specific efforts to help them could becomes scenes in a series of documentary and reality films designed to give the homeless people a job that finances their getting an apartment or at least a group home.

    Most of us are unaware of the Worgl, Austria local currency experiment that was conducted during the Great Depression and how successfully it was copied in hundreds of communities in the USA. As a matter of fact…… it looks like what these communities accomplished played a significant role in inspiring the USA government to alter the monetary system in many positive ways.
     
  3. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    :woot: Yes, we have a contender! I like the bartering part of it because it puts the social part back into the business transaction. People can get so used to getting things done electronically that they lose the human part of the transaction.

    The thing is how to get these alternative currencies to scale up to get large scale production done and to do business for large amounts of needed resources. Would the currency attract more users if it was backed by another resource?
     
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  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My daughter was in a Disney movie when she was four years old. It was shot near Antigonish, Nova Scotia.

    She only earned minimum wage but........ it was interesting to be told that speaking roles pay a minimum of a thousand dollars per hour and then up and up and up and up.

    A film devoid of conflict is boring..... so my idea is to join Canadian and American local barter organizations through documentary, reality, semi-reality science fiction and eventually Hollywood style theatrical film projects that go on and on and on and on.

    This other angle on who would be inclined to participate in LETS groups should appeal to New Agers and the political left.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...urrencies-finance-films-address-problems.html

    New Age Communities can print local currencies finance films that address problems?!
    At this time I tend to believe that New Age Groups may be the most likely to successfully initiate local currencies and use them to finance film projects in which homeless people could become actors playing the role of homeless people.... .which could easily finance their buying or renting homes????!!!!

    http://www.whatcomwatch.org/php/WW_open.php?id=717
     
  5. Beast Mode

    Beast Mode New Member

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    I don't think Capitalism is the problem. It gets closest to the principle of Liberty and Personal Autonomy. The problem is the way that wealth and profit is measured, and that is by pricing with a fiat monetary system. To compound the problem, the institution of Corporatism that has the same (but usually more) rights to capital and wealth creation than the individual does; and is not under the same strict scrutiny that an individual would have against another individual due to it's plural nature and difficulty to lay specific blame in a grievence. That is by design, I might add. So basically, Corporatism is Communism with a lower case "c" designed to avoid responsibility in regards to protecting property rights. It works fine for the most part, I guess.
     
  6. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    If it helps solves the homeless problem, I'm all for it. There are other initiates trying to do something differently socioeconomically, so the homeless issue is being tackled by several other small socioeconomic movements too. It's pretty encouraging (at least for me). Included in these movements is economic democracy, slow money, reputation economy, participatory economics, and collaborative commons.
     
  7. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    I disagree because I believe liberty and personal autonomy is gained through social norms and governing systems. Liberty and personal autonomy happens under many systems and in greater degrees than capitalism. Capitalism is just an economic class system for some individuals to own private property, hoard as much resources as they can, and then undermine social norms and governing systems because then they can leverage these resources to dictate new norms and while subverting others.

    I also don't see corporatism as communism because I don't see special interests in search of profits the same way I see collective efforts of people putting resources together to elevate the group.
     
  8. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The "alternatives" would mean a system where there is no "private ownership of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth through corporations or private individuals".

    The only alternative to that I can fathom is socialism/communism, where the government owns all production, distribution and exchange of wealth.

    That has never been shown to be viable, and logically, no one has every described to me how you can have an effective economic system without incentives for efficiency and production.
     
  9. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Efficiency and production will naturally come from strong demands and the ability to secure those demands. Even under capitalism, managers in factories or warehouses, will institute quota systems. If workers fail to meet their quota, there are consequences up until and including firing them. Managers had to do this because even with the incentive to make money, workers may not produce at the capacity needed to meet production standards.

    Since the nature of socialism/communism is inherently social/communal, the incentive is recognition, accolades, favors and many of the things that comes with being recognized as a great person. Still, when it becomes necessary to produce, quotas can be used like it is in other systems.
     
  10. Beast Mode

    Beast Mode New Member

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    I don't think "gained through social norms and governing systems" is quite accurate. I think "preserved through social norms and governing systems" is more accurate. I think liberty and personal autonomy is innate and liberty is the about being, where as freedom is what is constrained by social norms and governing systems because freedom refers to the ability to do and act on your liberty. But anyways, semantics.

    We will always have some sort of "class system" because, evolutionarily speaking, you die without order. Capitalism as an "economic class system" I think has a it's virtues in that it allows an individual to accumulate stuff necessary for survival with protections that it won't just be taken at any moment by someone else who is stronger and aggressive. I still isn't ideal in protecting the weak from the strong and aggressive, but that is more our innate failure than Capitalist theory.
     
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  11. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How will strong demand incentive efficiency and production if there is no reward for being efficient and productive?

    Fear and negative reinforcement will work to a degree, but do not produce the same incentive as positive reinforcement.

    Plus, a system that relies solely on fear and negative reinforcement seems repugnant to me versus a system that provides positive reinforcement. And if the negatives are too strong, what prevents the worker from leaving and finding a job that is not so demanding? Or are you suggesting that jobs are assigned and an individual has no power to choose his or her job?

    Who is going to work the more dangerous jobs? Who is going to risk their property to produce a better product or service?

    Who chooses the managers? Why do the managers have incentive to increase efficiency and production?

    Proponents of communism always fall back on this fantasy that an "atta boy" will serve to provide sufficient positive reinforcement. It has not worked empirically. Nor does it make sense on a gut level. I'm not going to risk my property and bust my ass for an "atta boy" when my neighbor gets the same jack for doing the minimum.

    Communism fails because it does not provide incentives.
     
  12. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problem isn't capitalism. The problem is that the government is constantly putting its thumb on the scales to protect certain enterprises at the expense of others. It rewards some groups an dpunishes others. The problem is the politics of money.
     
  13. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe that capitalism, with all its faults, is the best system we can come up with? If not, could you share some ideas for alternatives?

    Regarding the bolded, when the system has no interference, monopolies form and they begin to make slaves out of their laborers and price gouge their customers. The system itself is innately predatorial. The government has to step in time and time again just to keep it from preying on the citizens.
     
  14. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    The incentive would be the same as it would any other system. The better you are, the more responsibilities you'll have along with the recognition that goes with it. Under capitalism, if you don't work, you'll eventually lose everything. I don't see this threat as any type of positive reinforcement even though some jobs offer bonuses and perks. Under a system like communism and socialism, the people/government will decide how they handle discipline in the given workplace.

    People would opt for jobs based on their ability. They may be encouraged to do one job or another based on perceived skillsets.

    Managers may be chosen initially, but those with greater managerial skills could supplant them, just like in any other system.

    Communism has its incentives. It just may not be the same as those in a capitalist system.

    BTW, folks I'm not advocating one system over another. I want to talk about possible alternatives to the current system we have now.
     
  15. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sounds like you're getting more reponsibilities and risk but without the benefit of making more jack. Why would I want that?

    Yes capitalism does provide negative reinforcement. But also very strong positive reinforcement.

    Who determines their ability? Who "ecourages" them?

    Who chooses managers? Who determines others have greater managerial skills?

    The fantasy of "atta boys".

    We can improve the capitalist system we have without dropping a capitalist system.

    You're using labels like its an either or kind of gig.
     
  16. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you're getting more reponsibilities and risk but without the benefit of making more jack. Why would I want that?
    There's no reason why it would be different than under another system. The only difference is that since basic needs are met, people would do jobs according to their abilities. If you want more things, you would save, accumulate and spend like you would under any other system.


    Yes capitalism does provide negative reinforcement. But also very strong positive reinforcement.
    My response to this at the bottom*


    Who determines their ability? Who "ecourages" them?
    In modern times, it would be aptitude tests and through observations. Similar to what goes on in contemporary societies. Encouragement would come from parents, teachers, professors, peers, community, etc.


    Who chooses managers? Who determines others have greater managerial skills?
    The owners of a co-op, for example, would choose the managers. Those that demonstrate management capabilities would be eligible for management positions. The owners would determine the criteria for what constitutes what they are looking for in managerial skills. As long as a contender can prove and demonstrate those capabilities, they would be considered eligible. Co-workers, subordinates, and observations will provide the owners with who has the greater managerial skills. If a business expands, those in management positions may have the responsibility to help determine who will fill management positions.


    The fantasy of "atta boys".
    The current structure is filled with "atta boy" environments. There are plenty of disappointed people in the corporate world, for example. They feel like the "atta boy" treatment is the best they've got going for them. Many of these guys are salaried, so it doesn't matter if they under or over work their own salaried schedule or work harder or less than another person. Their pay remains the same. So, I never understood why this was an argument against another economic system.


    We can improve the capitalist system we have without dropping a capitalist system.
    Response at the bottom*

    You're using labels like its an either or kind of gig.

    [/QUOTE]

    How would one improve the current system without outright turning it into something unrecognizable? It seems to take an immense amount of regulation just to get the system this tolerable and that's not saying much.

    Over 50 million Americans live under the poverty line so 1/5th need government assistance. I could easily ask what is the real incentive to work now except for the threat of being homeless and impoverished? This is the extent of positive reinforcement for many people.

    Many people work to pay bills and they can't get ahead without any luck. Some people are one or two paychecks away from losing everything because the items needed to live independently are incredibly expensive. 30 years of a person's life to pay off a house and 6 years for a car?
     
  17. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No. Capitalism provides monetary incentives and rewards for producing products and services people want more efficiently.

    Who makes these observations? Who determines the tests? Who determines who is the manager at the plant or the head of the accounting group or sales manager?

     
  18. Drago

    Drago Well-Known Member

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    Healthcare. I need to know how healthcare is dealt with in any other system before I even consider. Although we have the best medical care available in the US, it isn't always accessible nor affordable. Our current system is a debacle to put it best, but if you want me to pay for a drug user the discussion is over. If you expect me to pay for someone who already uses welfare to buy fastfood every meal and expect me to pay for their heart attack, the discussion is over. This is a huge expense and I need to know where this would be going.
     
  19. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    No. Capitalism provides monetary incentives and rewards for producing products and services people want more efficiently.

    Yes, but enrichment for the human condition is usually developed outside of capitalism. Enrichment includes genuine advancements in the medical, technical, science, and economic planning fields.

    Who makes these observations? Who determines the tests? Who determines who is the manager at the plant or the head of the accounting group or sales manager?

    Observations can be conducted by floor managers or team leaders. They are the same people who can make inputs for tests, although the top manager(s) will have the final say. It all depends on the structure of that business like anywhere else in the world.

     
  20. OsirisPeralta

    OsirisPeralta New Member

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    Might as well present a new alternative to the thread. Why not mutualism?
     
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What an inspiring answer to this question!

    I am certainly encouraged that ten USA States are discussing minting State coins and are encouraging local governments to print up local currencies.

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/17/pf/local_currency/index.htm?iid=F_Jump

    I do feel that the State of Utah has great potential because the L. D. S. sure responded in a big way to Hurricane Katrina.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...-could-utah-state-dollar-save-usa-dollar.html

    Could a Utah State Dollar save the USA Dollar?



    Have you seen any of the following films:

    1. The Future of Food
    2. Food Inc
    3. The World According to Monsanto.

    If so..... then you know that the USA dollar to some degree is linked to and backed up by a plan to control the world's production of food in such a way that could eventually produce global famine.


    "George Soros says that America must give up the dollar and accept world currency."

    http://www.examiner.com/article/geo...aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582


    Back in 1994 I found out that President Lincoln had saved American taxpayers four billion dollars in interest payments and since that time I have been wondering what alternative was available to improve monetary policy that would not scare the investors on Wall Street.

    A Utah State Dollar could perhaps be the answer!????!!!
     
  22. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'd have to see something more concrete than your say-so to agree with that. Many advances in technology and in the fields you mentioned came from private enterprise.

    Who picks "floor managers" or "team leaders". Who chooses "top managers"?

    In capitalism, the owners pick management and have ultimate power over them.

    That is radically different from capitalism.

    If the workers choose top management, why wouldn't they simply choose the guy who is going to be easiest on them for the work schedule?

    Vote me for manager and you'll only have to work 20 hours a week for your normal pay!

    That would be a winner.

    Of course. But if you can do the same job down the street for 20% more pay, mostly likely you're gone.
     
  23. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Yes, why not? As long as an alternative includes solutions for tackling big projects and the incentives to participate are more selfless than selfish, I don't see why it wouldn't be an decent alternative to what we have now.

    My question for mutualism is if a community decided to go this route, how will they approach financing a commons project? Also, is it alright to maintain the use of the dollar or would it be better if they eventually created their own currency?

    Thanks for sharing btw and welcome to the boards :smile:.
     
  24. OsirisPeralta

    OsirisPeralta New Member

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    A commons project would be financed by the people interested in that project. Seeing as mutualism is anarchist, those people would have nothing stopping them in doing so. No state monopoly on land to prevent it. As for your dollar question, in mutualism there are competing currencies. :^D
     
  25. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    I've seen Food Inc. and The World According to Monsanto. It's easy to tell power is being consolidated. I mean those who control the production and distribution of food definitely have significant leverage over major populations. Anyway, I'll definitely listen to The Future of Food documentary. Please tell me it won't suggest a similar outcome to the Soylent Green movie :fingerscrossed:.

    Regarding local currency, I fully support it. The American Framework should allow for it and I'm always inspired by communities trying to be autonomous, righteous, protective, and self-sufficient/governing.

    Now, about the Utah State Dollar (UTD) saving the dollar *grimace* I don't know. I hate to say it, but with dwindling water sources and ever increasing competition for other resources, I'm not sure how much longer the baggage-ladden dollar will be tolerated in the global market. The UTD may be able to shield itself from the economic fallout of what's happening though. As long as they have secured food and water sources and are able to defend themselves, they have a good formula imho.
     
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