Practical firearms discussion: Double-barrel, side by side shotguns

At one point in the history of firearms technology, when loading a firearm was done from the muzzle end and involved a cumbersome process with powder, wadding and projectiles being separate components, such a design made perfect sense. Such a design made sense even when cartridges become self-contained, and breech loading became a reality. But then firearms with a repeating method of operation came into existence and allowed for multiple rounds of ammunition to be stored in a tubular magazine, allowing for multiple rounds to be discharged before the firearm was finally empty. Despite this, the double-barreled shotgun continues to remain not only in production, but popular enough to warrant continued production by numerous firearm manufacturers.

Why is this? Why is such an archaic design still so popular in the united states, despite proven superior designs being available to the public at equal or lower prices, with no greater degree of restrictions, and which offer much greater capacity in the process? What are the redeeming characteristics to the platform?

 

Granny prefers a 12ga. Mossburg.

 

Interesting question! I have to laugh because I remember an old school New Mexico town marshal who was still using a Stephens Three-trigger as his car gun way into the 1980's, and he'd argue rather firmly why he felt the old double was still a viable defense gun..

While I used the ubiquitous Remington 870 during my Border Patrol days (the 14-inch LE model) and still prefer it, I have to admit I can think of at least a couple of real-world advantages to the side-by-side shotgun IMHO.

First, because the SxS doesn't need to have a full receiver, such as in a pump or auto, the overall length of the SxS is shorter than either, given a 18-inch minimum barrel length and a shoulder stock. This can be an advantage for a house gun in terms of maneuverability in tight quarters. If the SxS has external hammers, the gun can actually be stored indefinitely without having to worry about magazine or hammer springs fatiguing from being under tension for long periods of time. And, of course, nothing is quite so imposing as the yawning muzzles of a side by side when pointed at a miscreant in terms of convincing them to surrender!

Secondly, no one can fire two rounds out of even a semiauto as fast as you can put two shots out of a SxS. Again, no action to cycle, simply pull another trigger. In a home defense scenario, two shots from a 12 gauge will solve 99% of real world self-defense scenarios.

It's funny, because I was talking to a buddy once about this very subject, and made the same arguments. He scoffed and challenged me to bring my grandfather's old SxS to the IDPA club shoot we had upcoming, as we had a tactical shotgun side match pending at the next one. I freely admit I suddenly felt I'd really put my foot into it, as I did not REALLY think a SxS would achieve anything but leave me dead last and subject to a lot of verbal abuse from my shooting friends; but, I was the one who made the arguments, so when it was match day I showed up with the SxS.

No one was more surprised than I when, out of a field of 15 shooters... I finished seventh overall. I lost time reloading after every two rounds (obviously) but I gained some back being able to fire followup shots without hesitation, and I didn't lose as much time on the reloads as I thought I would. The guys with the pumps and autos both ran their full payload far faster than I... but when they had to stop and reload six or seven shells in their guns when I was reloading every two rounds I made up a LOT of that time.

More than one of the guys at the shoot that day were shaking their heads and joking about how they wanted to pull their family heirloom doubles out of their closets and start working with them just for the fun of it!

I'm not advocating for the SxS as being at the forefront of self-defense technology today... but they can still be effective if you train for its idiosyncrasies!

 

Great White Hunter? Here its toff heaven. They pander to the past, whilst knowing that two shots will certainly destroy the poor little bird they can't be arsed to eat.

 

A comment from the expert that eats what others kill and prepare.

 

Because most states require a plug be installed in modern shotguns to limit rounds to 3 during hunting season. 2 rounds vs 3, a lot less maintenance on an over/under or side by side. You can also carry it with the breech open, snapping it closed as you raise it to your shoulder. No accidental discharges.

 

Yep, real men kill birds!

 

Nuisance species are devoid of compelling reasons to continue existing. They do nothing but damage the environment and present significant economical consequences by being left alive.

 

Yep. I reckon the NRA only exists to try and restrict red-billed quelea numbers. God bless em

 

Irrelevant and off topic nonsense, as per usual.

 

You're the one referring to nuisance species. Selective memory problem? Try marmite. Won't help, but stuff evidence!

 

For sporting shooters two instantaneous shots are very useful. In a competition setting the only thing that can go wrong with your O/U shotgun is the firing pin fails to hit the primer. In a semi-automatic shotgun all sorts of jams can occur.

That's not a huge issue if you're shooting ducks, but if its the final shoot in a trap competition the slim chance becomes noticeable.

Plus they're just neat, reliable guns that are fun to shoot and inexpensive to purchase.

The added benefit that they're legally available in every country worldwide as far as I know. If your country allows you to own any guns it'll let you own an O/U shotgun.

 

Mostly customer demand driven by tradition - any decent semi-auto will out-perform any double.

Then, there's this...
Pump action double - 2x8rd magazines.

 

For shooting clays, right?

 

Or whatever.

It's heavy, but short.

 

The two advantages are overall length (a double shotgun will be shorter than a repeater with the same length barrel), and the double can have two different chokes in the two different barrels.

 

... not so sure about that...

This is true.

 

Of course it's true. There are no repeating shotguns (of conventional design, not a bullpup) that are shorter than double barrels of the same barrel length. If you use the bullpup argument, well you could make a bullpup double barrel even shorter.

 

Actually, it's true. If you look at any pump or semiautomatic firearm the receiver where the mechanism functions adds to the overall length. The double-barrel dispenses with that.

 

Simplicity = reliability.

 

I could grab about any firearm I want in a home dangerous situation and have many, many to pick from.

My #1 choice is always the same - a twin hammer double barrel 12 gauge "coach gun" (semi-short barrel) with 5 spare shells in a stockholder.

1. With a single barrel firearm if it jams or doesn't fire you are totally disarmed.
2. It is THE most intimidating in appearance.
3. In a true PANIC situation where 1/2 a second counts you can fire both barrels (I have AA in one and a slug in the other.) Some claim no firearm really has "knockdown power." You hit someone chest center with a 12 gauge slug and 8 .33 caliber balls all at the same instant at a range of 5 feet might disprove that claim.
4. It makes a hell of a club.
5. I am most confident with it.
6. Bad shell with an auto - your out of luck. Bad shell with a pump and you lost at least a second.

A long gun overall is preferred as it has some ability to hold off someone with a knife for the barrel length.

Pump shotguns are slow with the 2nd shell. Autos can jam or fail to cycle.

I'm realistic. If I suddenly am faced with 3 armed intruders - all with firearms in their hand and all shooting at me - doesn't matter what I have - I lose.

Not ALL double barrel shotguns only can fire twice. A few - made long ago - could fire 4 times:


Although 160+ years old, if short barrels that would be superior to any home defense shotgun made today. Twin triggers. All 4 hammers cocked. The triggers fire the front hammers first. You can fire 1 or both at the same time - and then fire 1 or both of the back barrels. Superimposed muzzleloader. In less than a second you can hit someone 4 times. Or hit 2 people twice. Or 4 people once.

Again both rare and super pricey back then, superimposed pistol and long gun superimposed firearms were the rapid fire high tech weapons of the era - without the weight of gobs of barrels (some handguns has as many as 24 short rotating barrels or holes - but all single action.

Superimposed is a brilliant design - with the only flaw being if you loaded it improperly it might blow up firing all loads in one barrel at the same time. Imposed means a double barrel, usually applied to typical over-under shotguns. Superimposed means more than one load in the barrel.

In theory, you could have as many loads in a row as the barrel(s) allowed - provided each load has a separate ignition system. The one in the picture was genius in so rare all could be cocked at the same time - where most superimposed firearms you had to c*ck the hammer for each shot one at a time per trigger.

They were primarily as fowling shotguns because you could fire 4 times rapidly at the same flock - so those few made have very long barrels for range and altitude like all fowling shotguns. For example, the one in the picture has 31 inch barrels.

Because it is older than 1898, you could cut the barrels as short as you want to under federal and and in most states.

Antique firearms show incredible diversity and creativity as master gunsmiths each pursued THE perfect firearm for the technology of the era.

 

I agreed with most of what you wrote, but this comment struck me.

In training, we always talk about "mindset"; i.e. the way you think about combat and life-or-death confrontations. One of the concepts we cover is the thought "you create your reality; if you think it, so shall it be."

There are a great many documented instances of individuals facing multiple armed assailants and still winning the day. As one of my instructors likes to say: "If you're shot you ain't dead and if you're dead you ain't gonna know it, so if you have breath in your lungs you stay in the fight!"

Never assume you're going to lose; always hang onto the belief you're going to prevail.

 

Because pre 1898 shotguns can legally be cut down to any length - barrels and stocks - MANY of the otherwise outdated muzzleloading shot guns were cut down to extremely short barrels and the stocks reshaped like a pistol grip. So a person could legally have a twin hammer double barrel 12 gauge with 8 to 10 inch barrels and a pistol grip. I've seen them cut as short as 6 inches - a true "scatter gun" capable of firing sixteen 33 caliber balls and even more if dropping down to 22 caliber as a "scatter gun" of a very wide pattern at a very short distance - or put a 73 caliber lead ball in one of the two barrels - basically a mini handheld cannon.

These were very popular for bartenders and shopkeepers. I had one of those, but an ex-friend stole it years ago. VERY wicked looking and if someone was holding that you KNEW they meant business.

 

I agree with your psychological analysis, but that also is why I commented it makes a good club.

I was in a true life-death situation - as imminent and real as it gets - having a short double 12 in total darkness in a woods with a true murderer with a knife somewhere within a few feet of me - as we both remained silent waiting for the other to make a noise... a long story to tell, but with some good lessons I might write out sometime.

Self defense is about ODDS. For example, ideally a person would wear full body armor and ballistic helmet at all times, right? This would maximize the ODDS. But of course a person isn't doing to do that.

The TRUE shortcoming of a pistol? You can't not hold off a knife thrust no matter how fast you can react and pull the trigger. You CAN with a long gun. Pump shotguns also do not make a good club and a double barrel shotgun does.

Which is MORE likely? I will have a single intruder with a knife by surprise within a few feet of me or lone intruder with a handgun? OR multiple intruders ALL with handguns ready to fire?

Calculating ODDS - I think it LESS likely I will be facing multiple armed attackers than it is that I might face an attacker coming at me in a surprise with a knife from only a few feet away or more likely that I will face a single intruder with a firearm. In both instances I want to be able to hit that intruder with the MAXIMUM impact force - and 2 barrels is exactly 200% more than 1 barrel. Plus I do have 5 more shells in a shell holder and if I can shelter or survive 2 seconds, I'm ready to go again. A person also is less likely to charge if they see I'm holding a double 12 on them - than if a pistol. I think that instant 2nd shot (if I fired one barrel) more important than the delay of pumping a second shot - even if I then would still have 3, 4, 5 more shells to pump.

Simply, I think FOR WHAT IS MOST LIKELY the most important attributes are 1.) ability to have absolutely the maximize instant impact power against an attacker, 2.) Certainty the firearm will fire (the high moisture content here kills shells and jams firing pins), 3.) a long gun to hold back a sudden knife thrust and 4.) the fear factor of a short barrel double 12.

Also, if you see videos of multiple armed attackers against 1 armed person - as soon as the armed person fires the intruders or robbers all flee. Once shooting starts - everyone is fleeing and retreating. I believe once I fired and hit one (I DON'T miss with a shotgun) - even if their are 4 or 5 they are going to run - and with multiple intruders I'd fire one barrel plus make my priority a sheltering defense rather than charging offense - which any person should do anyway.

Of course, like Vegas, the odds are just that - gambling. I think my better gamble is with a double barrel as it would be more likely (in my opinion) I would not be facing multiple intruders. I think once shooting started - particularly if one of the intruders blown down with a shotgun hit, the others are running. If going outside to check out a noise? I'll have the double 12 with a pistol backup. (45acp with Crimson Trace grip)

And there is psychology. Sure, my M1A .308 or M1 30.06 are FAR more firepower than a double 12. However, I have total confidence in my double 12, which reduced the fear factor in me in an instant crisis situation. I had a Saiga 12 with a 20 shell canister. Now THERE is fire power. I got rid of it quick. TOO heavy. Don't need it. Didn't trust it to cycle. While pump shotguns probably THE most popular and I have a couple old ex-police 12 gauge pumps (they used to call them "riot guns" ) I really don't like a pump. Too much to have to do. Too slow between shells. Too much takes me off target. I just don't like a pump.

I am a horrible shot with a pistol or revolver - why all mine for usage have Crimson Trace grips. Rather piss-poor with a rifle. But I'm dead-on - ALWAYS - with a shotgun. A psychological thing - and psychology matters greatly in high stress life-death sudden situations. PANIC, terror, momentary indecision, these are the great dangers no one can really be fully prepared for. The firearm you MOST believe in is likely the one to have - though by calculations it might be inferior.

I have "won" conflicts in the past with a short double 12 and with a medium length field gun double 12 in the past. So inherently I will most put my trust in them. Again, I have 5 spare shells in a stock holder for any of them.

 

Great thread and now I feel dumb, it never occurred to me about OU or SS being shorter because it does not have the same action as SA or pump.

Looking at my shotty's for years and never thought about the advantage.

Any one own a bolt action Shotgun? The reason I bring it up is I do not know of a modern demand for them let alone know if they are still made.