Practical firearms discussion: Double-barrel, side by side shotguns

Haven't seen one for a while. They also made lever action shotguns. They are valuable as collectibles.

Oh, barrel length is measured to the bottom of the barrel - so any action BEHIND this doesn't count as barrel length - meaning the OVERALL minimal length of the shotgun could be identical to a double barrel - meaning identical barrel length by having a shorter stock on a pump or semi-auto. However, stocks are the length they are for a reason and too short a stock is problematical - assuming you shoulder it.

 

Some good, logical points you make! But THIS section, about your confrontation in the woods, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I always try to make sure I have a light of some kind on me; but the thought of knowing the threat was nearby and not being able to see him....damn.

 

Savage makes a bolt action shotgun--primarily a slug gun for use in shotgun only states.

 

This looks to me to be cap and ball, which is sorta like 'muzzleloader redoux' for pistols (powder, bullet (ball) and wad load from the front of the magazine, primer (cap) is applied to a nipple on the back). For legal purposes, cap and ball pistols (typically 6-shot) are considered muzzleloaders.

Muzzleloaders were predominantly available in single shot, but not always. While prohibitively expensive relative to single-shot, the technology for 'rapid fire' (example pictured) was achievable throughout the history of our nation. The 'Puckle Gun' (not pictured, though similar in operation to that pictured) was an early ancestor to the Gatling Gun and exists in drawings going back to the early-mid 1700's.

 

That's right. Savage and another company still make them. Always had a good time shooting the model 59A and enjoy something different. I guess the history was it was a poor mans utility shotgun.

 

My first shot gun was an inherited J.C. Higgins 16ga bolt at age 12...I cut down to fit me. Slow followup, but I didn’t miss much in the field... it put meat in the pot for several years.

 

I shifted my interests from modern firearms and WW1 - Korean military firearms to antiques. The history of firearms, particularly for civilians - and very interesting in both design, what people carried, the attitudes and reasoning behind it.

For example, the first firearms were VERY large caliber. However, there was a long period where ANY firearm was deemed sufficient - even if very small caliber and very low firepower because of the FEAR factor. The WORST thing that could happen was if someone was shot in the stomach because there was no way to stop the person dying from sepsis. If you really hated someone, you would shoot the person in the stomach. Native Americans called firearms a weapon "that kills slowly."

ANY penetration of the intestines was a HORRIBLE death sentence by which a person would die over days and weeks. Even the military for over 100 years considered all gut wounds lethal. They would not be medically treated and only to be made a comfortable while dying. For example, the US Navy's guideline was to put the gut-wounded on the deck so they could see the sky for the last days of their life - but also out of the way of internal ship operations.

So tiny pocket guns became extremely popular. A huge percentage of urban populations for decades was armed - even women - with special designs for women (very small and easy to pull out without snagging up.)

Of course, being able to fire more than 1 shot was definitely sought after and small caliber, short barrel pistols with rotating barrels because very popular and possible when percussion cap-and-ball was invented. Better to have 3,4,5 little bullets than 1 big powerful bullet. At least TWO was considered essential - as firing 1 did not disarm you and proved you meant business. So a person would carry 2 tiny 1 shot pocket guns rather than 1 more powerful single shot pistols.
Women would carry 2 "muff" guns - single shot - for winter hand muffs or in a pocket on each side.

The military, of course, needed BIG calibers for battle, as civilians shifted to smaller and smaller handguns. So the military pistol might be a 50+ caliber single shot pistols with an 11 inch barrel - basically a mini-cannon - while at the same time a civilian would opt for a tiny 22 that could fire 4 shots in a rotating single action short 4 slot barrel that fit in a pocket.

 

History is what got me into collecting what I could within reason, reading about battles and tactics, and what hardware was essential.

What is also interesting was how civilians reacted inside the zones, bartering systems and deception for survival to include traitors at the neighborhood level. Not enough first hand accounts of civilians telling how and what they did for many reasons but to my understanding most acts for survival went to the graves with the individuals after the war.

We have unlimited testimony from different war machines, soldiers and governments propaganda but now have focused my attention to individuals and families.

I was lucky in Holland during the Nijmegen marches and was able to talk to that generation that suffered extreme hardships during WWII. For 3 years I got to live with the Dutch family for 4 weeks each time, they kinda adopted me and my wife. Nothing better than to sit around in the evening drinking a good beer and just listen.

At the time I was living in Germany (7 years) and tried to get several Germans of that generation to warm up and talk a little but had no luck.

The Dutch are more inviting and warm compared to Germans in social settings and befriending. I went to most war memorials regardless of friend or foe. Our enemies suffered dearly, rightly so, but still deserve our respect after all the cards are on the table and games over.

Would have loved to gone to Russia, Baltics. I am semiretired now but once fully retired the wife and I are taking a full year to travel the different paths of our civil war in our RV. It is important to me to visit the civil war sites while experiencing the seasons.

I don't think our own citizens realize what they are doing when tearing down statues and memorials. We need history, warts and all.

 

The Civil War was a different era of different values and loyalty to one's state was the same - if not greater - than loyalty to the federal government.

What is ironic is after the war the North highly respected the soldiers of the South, who generally fought with high honor, respect of civilians and within the rules of war. It even could be claimed it was the South doing so that cost them the war, the North shifting to warfare against civilians as to why the North won.

Understand, I believe the South had to be truly crushed, including the super rich plantation owners who were the real cause. They were THE super rich of the era with god-like life-death power over their slaves. The only thing they didn't have was their own country and they each wanted one - each their own slave state united in a confederacy of states.

Yes, the history, warts and all, should be preserved. No one condemns Rome, Greece, London... for not tearing down their statutes and other items of the most horrific levels of mass slavery, while we cursed ISIS for blowing up ancient artifacts. How is what the leftwing demands - and now successfully - any different from what ISIS did?

 

cuz they are dandy for close quarters

 

I'd be delighted to own a modern side by side with rabbit ear hammers. Because it'd look cool and be a lot of fun to shoot. Just as an old lever gun is outdated when compared to a modern semi-auto rifle, it's all part of enjoying the gun sports!

Sadly none are made in the USA anymore. Not with rabbit ear hammers, that's for sure.

For my home, I've a pair of Mossbergs, a 500 and a 590A1. If I want to hunt with a shotgun the 500 is just a barrel change and a magazine tube plug away from complying with those hunting regulations. No problem!

 

YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING...

If I started a thread on this it would be way too much look-at-me! I wrote this out once before, decided not to post it. So I'll put it on this thread about double barrrel shotguns, since that's what I had.

Of course, there is no way to know if anything a person says on a forum is true. This is exactly as it happened. But even if not, the events plausible and the lessons are valid regardless. Might be an interesting read regardless.

CIRCUMSTANCE:

This was decades ago. I was working in a small tourist city. Most businesses were owned by elderly people and back then most sales were with cash. The business owners would take the money home at the end of the day and make it ready for deposit the next day. There had just been two murder-robberies at such owners' homes. All elderly. One was a man who lived alone. The other an elderly couple. All viciously stabbed to death – very violently. The city was terrified.

PREPARATION:

The owner where I worked lived in a mobile home that was down a gravel driveway about 300 yards long back in a heavy pine woods. Along it was a paved road about 75 feet off a small front porch he had built. The road was sunken down about 8 feet. I put very dim lights around the trailer to allow peaking out to see anyone out there – and flood lights on all 4 corners with an inside switch – but left off not to draw attention.
I replaced the cheap trailer doors with steel doors, upgraded locks, and each a floor bolt to slow a kick-in – and left my shotgun with him safety OFF after showing him how to use and reload it.

I convinced the owner to let me lock up the business– him to leave early carrying nothing and wearing just a shirt sleeve so it clear he had nothing in case the killer staked victims in advance and followed them. (Carry was 100% illegal then). The wife was to turn on the flood lights as he arrived and he was to hurry inside empty handed. I would bring the money later on my Norton 850 kickstart Commando (gives you an idea how long ago this was) – leaving clearly holding a bank money bag in case the murderer watching. I was tough back then, very, and since his weapon was a knife if stalking I wanted him to come at me openly.

Though illegal to carry, I always had a beat up old LLAMA 45acp tucked up by the headlight in the Windjammer faring – a cheap Spanish knockout of the Colt. However, it was not involved in this. Wearing my worn black leather jacket with the big gold Norton wings on the back.

THE FIREARM:

Trap shooting was real big among the farmers around there and I'd go to the trap range with my Richland 707 – a medium length lightweight 12 gauge “field gun.” Beautiful with a hand carved stock I had saw used in a gun store one time. Being non-vented and lightweight it kicked like hell compared to the over-under shotguns they used that were specific for trap shooting. I always – no exceptions – was at least 24 of 25. They were surprised I could do that with that type of shotgun – particularly since HARD recoils tend to throw a person off over time due to flinching. Not me.

I kept it loaded with OO (8 .33 balls) – and 5 extra shells on the stock. That is the firearm I had in this incident.

IT BEGINS:

I arrived at his mobile home back in the woods, unlocked the door putting the bag on the kitchen table and then went back outside for a smoke leaving the door unlocked. He had offered for me to stay in a spare bedroom. I had declined, but felt for some reason that night I should. It was a beautiful, but moonless night, dimly lit by the small lights I had put up. Smoking inside would not be allowed. So I was on the porch smoking a cig, relaxing. I didn't figure anything really would happen, just the practice of being prepared.

I heard what sounded like an animal down in the embankment maybe a hundred feet away. Not concerned much, but listened. A couple minutes later I heard some sticks break directly from where I was on the porch down that embankment. Instantly I knew it's him.

I ran inside - hearing him coming up the embankment as I did. I hit the flood light switch and grabbing the shotgun turning back to the open door. He was coming over the railing just as I got to the door. Young bum looking guy, white and sandy hair, around 6 foot. Blue jeans. Red plaid shirt. Big kitchen type knife. Crazed look.

Seeing the shotgun he instantly turned jumping down running – now his back to me. It was a certain kill shot, but I deliberately fired OVER him. I had not really thought out what I would do if something happened, wasn't inclined to shoot someone in the back, and I think just wanted to scare the hell of him so he would not return.

While starting to pursue I reloaded and again fired – but again above him as he dashed up the embankment on the other side of the road. Second time I could have fired a certain kill shot – but didn't. 7 shells was now 5 as I again reloaded a barrel.

CHASE IN THE DARK THRU A PINE WOODS

Ever try to RUN thru a pine woods in total darkness? That's what we both were doing. I was shouting obscenities at him promising to kill him, firing again high towards the sound of his running thru the sticks and pin needles. Time and again it sounded like he ran into a tree so hard it tripped or knocked him down. I was slow running, trying to feel trees before hitting them too hard. He was running faster, but I could tell by the sound he slammed into a tree and another and another – sometimes him going down and back up running. He was slowly getting further away, but not much. I'd guess the distance between us around maybe 75 feet and slowly widening. I was ok with that as there was a limit how far this could go.

CONFIDENCE THIS BATTLE WAS MINE

I knew this woods and the direction he was going. It was a fairly large wooded area that opened up to and was circled by a small section of farm land – freshly plowed – but it ended at a small lake – but in that dark he wouldn't know that – and there would be some light as there was a road with a few lights on it. We were basically in a U shaped woods – unless straight back he would end up on open ground and would not know it ended at a lake before it too late for him to get back into the woods.

His path was a dead end and would leave him completely in the open and lite up a little bit by some lights at the lake – but he wouldn't know it dead ended at a lake until he got to it. As long as I just stayed within shotgun range hearing him running ahead of, the battle was mine to win.

Again I had fired in the direction of the sound he was running, deliberately high again. Shouting that I was going to kill him to scare him.

I was down to 2 shells in the barrel, 2 on the stock meaning I only had 2 shells left to waste. I was a tough guy, very tough, tougher than he, but I also was a city guy, never a hunter and I was out of my knowledge and skills zone - though not yet realizing that.

THEN EVERYTHING CHANGED – COULD I HAVE BEEN MORE STUPID?

Ever hear the phrase “the thought hit me like a bolt of lighting?” That happened - and it saved my life that night. Like a screaming internal voice I remembered a line from poem I had once read: “Not even the leaves made a sound. Something is afraid.”

I instantly dropped to the balls of my feet into as low a couching position curling down and ducking my head down balled up as low as possible, pulling the shotgun in tight – barrels slightly up with the end level to my head – pulled in tight - the triggers at my side, my fingers of one hand on BOTH triggers. My arm in front of my head – defensively and to be able to grab or shove. If he came at me, I wanted him to come too high and to have no good thrust target for him. He would be OVER me – the barrels right into him and my other hand ready to grab him.

SILENCE. Total darkness. Total silence. “Not even the leaves made a sound – something is afraid.”

He was afraid – of me and my shotgun – likely certain I was firing at him - and he had shifted from prey to predator. We now BOTH were prey and both were predator. His knife. My shotgun.

I knew he had one purpose now in his mind. KILL ME. My mind had changed too as I now had that same singular goal – KILL HIM. This was as kill-or-be-killed as it gets. I was focused, 100%, no fear. Back then I was truly fearless. This was entirely tactical decisions.

The only sound I had been hearing the previous few seconds? MY feet going thru the sticks and pine needles. He has stopped running – and I was running straight into him – and his knife.

I knew he was CLOSE. VERY CLOSE. TOTAL DARKNESS. TOTAL SILENCE. For all I knew if I reached out I'd touch him. Maybe if I listened close enough I could hear his breathing? Only listening and making no sound mattered.

He had heard me last, so would have a better idea where I was at. But if he charged and miss calculated I'd blow him apart. Both barrels, reload and do it again point-blank even if him down. But if he charged, he could not know I was a tight low ball with my shotgun between him and I. But a knife is far more easy to yield.

There was NO chance I would leave him alive. Him wounded? Begging for life? I would show him the mercy he had shown those old people – and me - if he got the chance.

If I had to gamble on the outcome in retrospect? I'd put it at 50-50.

Ever hear the story of the two ultimate martial arts masters standing waste deep in a river, both in their stance, looking at each other in each their stance? It goes like this: “They stood there minute after minute, hour after hour. One day, then another day in the cold river. Motionless. Then one of them blinked. He died.”

WHO WOULD BLINK FIRST?

It all came down to that.

I closed my eyes to focus solely on listening. How long? I can't say. Minutes. An hour? Not even willing to set my heels down, balanced on the balls of my feet nor let the butt of the shotgun to touch the ground. No crinkling leather jacket either. Zero movement. Breath lightly. Curled down like that was awkward and uncomfortable. Increasingly difficult to balance and hold that odd position. But I dare not move. If I dropped my heels it'd make a sound – and I would possibly die for it – stabbed 20-30 times like he had done to those old folks. The one of us to blink first loses.

"GOTJA!"

Finally - a stick snapped. I shouted out “GOTJA!” And fired one barrel directly at the sound. I heard what sounded like him running but also him quickly hitting the ground, then up again and running away from me – fast. I fired again directly at the running sound – the goal to kill him. A couple seconds later it sounded like he went down again, but back up and running. Though this left me an empty shotgun, I'd have time to reload with him running away from me.

I reloaded my last 2 shells and called it quits. He had figured out how to win this if I kept up the pursuit. I walked out VERY slowly, stopping every feet steps to listen. A person can't really walk a straight line in total darkness so he could inadvertently circle into me or visa vera. Maybe I'd get lucky and I'd hear him running my way. I didn't want to stumble into him waiting again.

16 FEET FROM VIOLENT DEATH

A police dog later traced the path. It was clear where the stand off had been. He had been behind a small pine tree but not wide enough to shield him. 16 feet directly ahead of the route I was running. I had hit the tree waist high almost dead center – but off a bit to my right - enough that a pellet or 2 or 3 could have hit him. There was some blood, so at least 1 of the 33 caliber pellets had hit him, but not enough to drop or stop him.

After I fired he had turned to run but ran into a tree - why he went down the first time – and it appeared quickly ran into another tree after my second shot – why he went down again – him running as fast as he could – running into trees. On the path the dog followed, for about 200 feet he had run wide open – bumping into trees – tripping or falling time and again. He was running in a full panic by his strides and bumping into tree after tree. But then he had slowed down. The length of his stride shortening.

Had I run 2 more seconds I would have run into that knife into my chest or throat.

The path had some blood here and there. There was a point he had stopped, more blood on the ground. It was hoped he had bled out, circling around in the black woods trying to figure how to get out. The whole woods surrounded by law enforcement and even locals coming with their deer rifles – word spreading fast in that town – but this was as dawn approached. No such luck.

He had circled way back around to where he had parked some vehicle a hundred yards up that road along the mobile home. They never caught him, but there were no more murders in that little city either.

The police a bit chewed me out for not killing him with my first shot, which would have been a certain kill. I agreed with them.In reflection, I decided it was unethical for me to have not killed him with my first shell – which would have been a certain kill. I was only thinking of myself and the present moment, not others or the future. There were no more killings in that city doesn't mean there were no more elsewhere and he was never brought to justice for the murders he had committed so far as I know. A 12 gauge blast in his back in my opinion would be justice to his having brutally stabbed to death 3 elderly people – not necessary to have robbed them.

 

LESSONS LEARNED

ALWAYS trust your instinct. NEVER, ever discount any sense of danger – ever. NEVER worry if you are just being paranoid, what anyone else thinks or any of that. Nor delay. Accept the alarm as 100% real and 100% immediate. Your SUBSCIOUS is FAR more aware of danger than your conscious mind and will TRY to warn you – but your conscious mind always has so much clutter to filter thru.

Fortunately, that was a lesson I had learned long before this. I have ALWAYS done so – even if seemingly no reason or like paranoia.

If your inner voice says “danger!” - consider it instantly imminent. No exceptions. If you sense some place is danger – leave immediately. If you sense danger and can grab a firearm? Do it – immediately. If a parking lot seems dangerous – do NOT get out and instead just drive off. See a someone that makes you uncomfortable while pulling in for gas – don't stop. Walking out to your vehicle and sense danger? Hurry back inside. Someone approaching you and you sense danger? Do worry what it looks like – run away. ALWAY listen to your inner voice when it says “danger.”

Lesser lessons learned? Think of ALL possibilities and what you will do for each as much as possible BEFORE HAND. Assume the worst. I had figured the odds of anything happening extremely low and only was just taking precautions. I had not really figured exactly what I would do if something would REALLY happen – and therefore no prior decisions made of what I would do if it did. DECIDE IN ADVANCE WHAT YOU WILL DO FOR ANY SCENARIO.

Had I thought it out, knowing he a merciless murderer, I would have decided if he comes I will kill him. I would have had my Llama 45 in my belt under my jacket while on the deck – and would have emptied it into him as he initially charged.

As for thinking of possibilities, only a fool chases someone completely blind thru a woods. For how serious this was and tourist towns always has a high number of police per population, I should have phoned the police and in 5 minutes they'd have surrounded that woods rather than chased him.

Everything I did was wrong-headed because I had thought none of it out. Rather, I relied on my toughness and fearlessness to be enough for whatever happened – figuring nothing would.

Who is the prey and who is the predator can instantly change. Often, the wise decision is to be as the prey and flee. But if you are the prey, sometimes it wiser to do as he did, and become the predator. Who was the prey and who was the predator had shifted back and forth that night and in end we both were prey and predator.

Facing assault, any mercy, reservation or hesitation can kill you. Remember the saying – better to be judged by 12 than carried to your grave by 6.

Of the many regrets of my past, not having killed him with that first shell is up that list – not because it almost got me killed. In the far distant past I was almost killed a few times. It was that he needed to be destroyed and I could have done it. In my opinion, I failed in a moral responsibility by not killing him at the start. I would guess a lot of people would disagree.

This is not the only time I reacted to a sense of danger or when a double barrel 12 gauge shotgun saved my ass. Nor the only time who is prey and who is predator had reversed. Generally, a predator will not anticipate the prey shifting roles – just as I had not that night. I should have know better. Prior to this incident I had made such a shift one time – and it made the different. If you are fleeing and this is failing, become a predator as that is your only remaining chance and the predator likely will not expect it. If you are being chased – but know you are being run down – turn and fight.

Hope this recount of a long, long time ago didn't bore you.

 

Some crossover here in this article:

Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions
by Brad Fitzpatrick | October 8th, 2014
Double rifle enthusiasts prefer these guns for dangerous game because they offer faster follow-up shots than bolt guns. Is that true?

For years, writers and professional hunters have touted the use of double rifles for following up dangerous game because doubles offer “the fastest second shot.” For this reason, many hunters planning a safari that will include dangerous game feel that they need a double to be prepared for a close-quarters encounter with dangerous game. However, before you spend five figures on a high quality double, it’s important to know the facts, and the fact is that double rifles don’t always provide you with the best solution when hunting dangerous game.

To help verify the claim that the double rifle offers a faster second shot than a bolt gun, I reached out to my friend Monty Kalogeras, owner of Safari Shooting Schooloutside Mason, Texas. Monty has become well known for helping to train hunters who want to improve their shooting skills, and each year he helps many clients learn to shoot and handle big bore rifles before they travel to remote regions of the world in the pursuit of dangerous game. Monty has accumulated more data from speed tests than anyone I know, and he has a very good understanding of what a hunter needs to prevent being trampled, tossed, gored or mauled. The answer to whether the double or the bolt-action is faster, he says, is far more complex than a simple breakdown of the two action types.

“I timed shooters for almost two years to see which type of rifle allowed them to deliver the fastest aimed follow-up shot,” he says. The key word is aimed. It’s not simply a matter of making the gun go boom a second time but a matter of delivering an accurate shot, coming down from recoil and sending a second shot into the target that is in the right place to stop a charge.
..........................................

For the shooter that is very skilled with both rifle types and has been trained to quickly shoot both a double and a bolt gun, Monty says that the double typically has a speed advantage for the second shot, but that’s assuming you have a shooter who has trained extensively with both guns and who has the proper stance and handles recoil effectively. Such shooters are very rare, and for the majority of the shooting public, our personal skill sets make us faster with one rifle type. I fully understand this because I attended Monty’s school myself. Because I have shot many, many more bolt guns than double rifles, I was naturally slower with a double. Simply put, the mechanics weren’t there, and I needed help from a professional to help me walk through the process and learn the proper technique.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/hunting/fact-fiction-double-rifles-faster-second-shot-bolt-actions/

 

The pluses of a double is 1.) you can fire both barrels at the same instant - for example a hog charging full speed at you out of undergrowth with no time for a second shot and 2.) you are not unarmed by a defective firing pin, trigger or shell. They also are more intimidating in regards to other people. The disadvantage is less shells.

There is one other advantage that long ago was talked about in LONG barrel Damascus barrel shotguns. IF a person as perfectly trained and experienced, the weight of the barrel rapidly brought it back down from recoil lift. IF a person because experienced enough, they could EXACTLY time the second shot to be fired QUICKLY being perfectly back on target by the barrel(s) drop for the high weight and barrel length. Inherently, 2 barrels weigh more than 1, so weight is in favor of less recoil lift, less recoil "flinch," and back on target quicker.

 

None, this is why I want to see it before the US moves further left, blaming objects as the source of hate.

Never would have guessed in my lifetime that this would happen.

 

For 1300 you can get a semi auto version of the AA12.

Load a drum full of rice crispy rounds and you have the most destructive semi auto firearm in existence. Rice crispy treats become armor piercing when used as slugs. And I mean Class IIIA + effective which is some pretty tough material.