President Trump Criticizes Socialism in State of the Union

Discussion in 'United States' started by Talon, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    If we ignore failed and failing strategies and instead look at the new, embryonic examples of an emerging socialist economy in a context where they cannot depend on any such governmental action, we see that they flourish better than equivalent traditional capitalist businesses as found by a Rutgers University study.
    https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/17/senators-look-take-vermont-worker-owner-effort-nationwide/
    So your statement here is demonstrably false.

    That is unsupportable speculation and wrong.

    WHOA! On any job I ever had I was required to follow the employer's directions to the exclusion of my own initiative. This has also been the experience of every other employee I've ever known. So your statement is blatantly false.

    I just dealt thoroughly with that. See above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  2. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I don't see you providing any real evidence that the video was wrong. Words come easily, eh?

    I don't see you providing any real evidence that the video was wrong. Words come easily, eh?

    Then please do so! I don't see you providing any real evidence that the video was wrong. Words come easily, eh?
     
  3. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The funny part about all your socialist propaganda is that your "progressive" comrades have pledged to eradicate economic and political inequality only to replace them with their own economic and political inequalities that created even more poverty at the expense of more of our freedom.

    We had this argument in the 20th Century and YOU LOST

    [​IMG]

    What you're defending and promoting is a failed system whose proponents are responsible for murdering over 100 million people since the Bolshevik Revolution and oppressing and impoverishing hundreds of millions more. The History you ignore and would have us ignore is being played out before our eyes again in Venezuela, where the democratic socialists in that country destroyed the democracy, freedom and prosperity of yet another people. Your question is farcical - there is NOTHING in the world that would motivate me to repeat the mistakes you want to repeat.

    [​IMG]

    There's an old saying that applies to the socialist Cult of Fiasco: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. We can see some of that in the social welfare policies that "progressives" have enacted in our country, and here's a warning that Senator Patrick Moynihan gave to his fellow Democrats in 1965 when they were passing their Great Society/War on Poverty programs:

    From the wild Irish slums of the 19th century Eastern seaboard, to the riot-torn suburbs of Los Angeles, there is one unmistakable lesson in American history; a community that allows a large number of men to grow up in broken families, dominated by women, never acquiring any stable relationship to male authority, never acquiring any set of rational expectations about the future -- that community asks for and gets chaos. Crime, violence, unrest, disorder -- most particularly the furious, unrestrained lashing out at the whole social structure -- that is not only to be expected; it is very near to inevitable.

    Disturbingly prophetic, but no one wanted to listen then and you and your comrades don't want to listen now.

    And the harm goes beyond the creation of a permanent welfare class that has embraced government dependency and ensured that it will remain mired in poverty. It goes to the insidious destruction of people's value for individual freedom and personal responsibility and independence. It goes to encouraging people to be weak instead of strong - to sapping their independent thinking and spirit.



    The socialists who want to "fundamentally transform" the United States of America aren't offering freedom and prosperity - what they're offering is Nihilism.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  4. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Your post includes some good ideas--many of which I follow myself. But the thing is, your post illustrates a weakness in conservative thinking that is seldom recognized. Conservatives evaluate both a person's worth & their level of intelligence by how much money they have. In a world where the only thing worth valuing in life is money, this perspective works. But Earth isn't like that. On Earth there a literally thousands of things in life that many--possibly most--people value more than money. I know I do. And, those people never learn to be a thrifty or conscientious as you in regards to their finances. But that doesn't make them less valuable as human beings or as citizens. Often they accomplish things in their lives that impact society in better ways than simply providing jobs or more wealth. As examples I offer: teachers, medical research people, small town medical doctors, scientists, ministers, social workers, etc. The list goes on and on. None of us would expect these types of people to become so focused on financial issues that they become highly successful in that area, unless they were born into it. Which brings another statistic into focus. The vast majority of wealthy & ultra-wealthy people got that way because they inherited it. That means they didn't earn it. Conservatives are always praising the illusion that those who are poor can easily change that in their lives by being smart, working hard & become wealthy on their own. Yes some do. About 3% of our population during good decades. But, in practice, the facts don't support the conservative illusions about capitalism being the cure & the good guy they want to convince all of us it is.
     
  5. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trying to rationalize the irrational, Stu?

    Behold the "logic" of TDS...
     
  6. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Democrats love discussing failed schools. But they never improve the schools.

    Schools should teach investment economics from grade school forward. Plant the idea in students heads how to invest and the lessons will last a lifetime. Democrats waste their time trying to make being rich a sin. To them the rich are louses.

    I have long said, so this is a repeat, set goals, make plans and you will do far better than those committing the sins you nailed.

    Learn the golden rule on compound interest. Some think all your cash needs be in a bank. I have long located good real property and like magic the returns soar to the 30 percent range. Don't tell me about the down times since there are far more good times.

    The first home I purchased cost me then $15,400. Guess what it would sell for this moment?

    Did you guess $100,000 Pretty high isn't it?
    Well actually I bought the home in 1965 and today the market value is about $1,100,000

    What could you have bought for $15,400 in 1965, later converted to a rental with tax reduction consequences, that became profitable around 1970 and from then forward was a cash cow. So more than the market value today, over time it has paid for itself, reaped huge profits all because at the time when the price in 1965 seemed out of sight, it became a fortune.

    People see finances as they see sex. You want results today. This very moment. But if you play the long game, you all could have become multimillionaires.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  7. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Trump's 'tax cuts' hurt his voters:






    thus, those "cuts" turned out to be socialist welfare for the rich
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I spend time weekly with a woman whose worth in dollars today exceeds 15 million dollars. So what did her and her husband do? They both retired many years ago by the way.

    She taught elementary school. Her husband was an electrician in the union.

    They have not had to draw a paycheck in so many years that I believe the last paycheck Bill Clinton was the president.

    They slowly accumulated real estate. That is it. The property turned them into multimillionaires.

    They easily draw per month from the properties $30,000. Add to that they have pensions from their former jobs. But had they spent all their earnings at Denny's restaurant or McDonalds, where would they be right now?
     
  9. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Keeping your own earnings is a return check?

    You err by assuming all income belongs to government.

    The fatal Democratic party flaw is to them all income belongs to the Government.
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is such thing as insane disparity.

    What Democrats want you to believe that down from you lives the Smith Family. The Smiths never blew their incomes. They saved and invested. Given a long range program, today they are multimillionaires. Their next door neighbors instead went to all the latest movies, spending on food out a lot of the time, spurged over short time periods on cars and clothes and plenty of other stuff.

    The investments paid off. During down times, they were made fun of for investing. But they stuck it out. The neighbors rented. They had 2 months earnings in savings.

    There is a disparity but not insane. And it would be handed around the local area if you had your way. Democrats logic sucks.
     
  11. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    In case you didn't know it, government creates the currency.
     
  12. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Federal Reserve creates currency and it is not part of the Federal Government.
     
  13. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]

    You're not even addressing the points I made, much less refuting them.

    Where in the Constitution is the Supreme Court granted the authority to literally write/rewrite legislation?

    Where in the Constitution is the Supreme Court granted the authority to declare an exaction a tax?

    Obviously, it was not legal precedent for decades.

    It also appears that you're having trouble with the definition of and distinction between "private" and "public", most particularly as it pertains to property.

    I agree that upholding the Constitution is the job of the SCOTUS. Unfortunately, the SCOTUS doesn't always do its job and sometimes it assumes the jobs of the other branches of government that it is not authorized to assume by our Constitution.

    Another thing I agree with you on is that we have a court system, in part, because legislators and executives are not infallible. Like it or not, the judges who occupy our courts are not infallible, either, which brings us back to my point - our government and its officials do not always uphold the Constitution.
     
  14. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Failed system? Where have you seen the system of worker ownership and control of the MoP fail? Please provide evidence that any such system did, indeed, have worker ownership and control.
     
  15. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You validated my complaint. Most Democrats squirm and deny the truth.

    The currency is worth very little in cost to the Feds.

    The actual value is decided by the spender and the receiver.

    The face value may say $100 but to the car dealer he sees it as worth $75. So in the bargain for the car, the two sides must come to an agreement.

    Take the worker who is paid gross $30,000 but takes home minus all taxes, $25,000.

    The value of the $100 he earns is reduced by 16.67 %

    Anyway, to those thinking their currency belongs to the Feds due to their cost, only slightly can that be claimed. The 100 dollar bill currently cost the Feds 12.5 cents. Since they collect an income off those notes, they got the best deal of all.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/new-100-bill-costs-60-more-to-produce-2013-10-08
     
  16. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you ever spent a few years on any committee that spent money?
     
  17. MMC

    MMC Well-Known Member

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    Trump certainly put the Demos on display. While at the same time, putting them on the defensive for 2020. They can explain why they aren't Socialists or try to avoid the Perception. Either way its a win win for Trump.
     
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  18. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Eminent Domain is for the purpose of converting from private property to public property lands such as used for roads.

    But to misuse it to convert private property to the ownership of a different private person is wrong.
     
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  19. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One of the myriad failures of that failed utopian ideology and system is that the theoretical ideal cannot be wholly and universally applied with success in the real world. Ironically, socialists have used that as a crutch for their failures when, in fact, it lies at the root of their failures. This also points to the glaring flaw in the theoretical ideal itself - if it can't be implemented in the real world it is of no practical use and value, thus any attempt to implement it boils down to an act of pure Nihilism - destruction for destruction's sake.

    And THAT is exactly what happened in the USSR and the other extinct nations in the Communist Bloc and is happening in Venezuela today. The Nihilists who masquerade as "progressives" are good at destroying things but they're horrible at building things that don't involve executing and imprisoning people, e.g., Gulags and Guillotines...
     
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  20. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Their ruling is final until or unless a later court changes the court's mind.

    Slavery was quite legal when Dred Scott was decided but once the legislature overpowered the Justices, it was no longer legal. Note the legislature can overpower the Justices.
     
  21. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And in the states/commonwealths that remedied the Supreme Court's miscarriage of justice it is both illegal and unconstitutional. I'm proud and pleased to say that our commonwealth (Virginia) is one of them.
     
  22. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Correct. The constitution rejects the fundamental premise of socialism. State control of the means of production.
    For trump to make a dramatic declaration th
    at America will never be socialist, is like saying the sky is blue.
    No points for bullshit designed to "denigrate" social democrats.

    As to him throwing out the constitution, with Trump I think it is more about his ignorance of its contents and what co-equal branches actually mean in terms of his own limitations. Meanwhile his administration is attempting to circumvent the intent of various laws, not to mention the trashing of accepted ethics.

    And yes I believe there is a subset of trumpettes who would like nothing better than to make their Dear Leader President for life.
     
  23. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    LOL - Good luck "avoiding the perception" when the camera caught you sitting on your butt and snarling at the President while he swore that America would never be a socialist country.

    I'm looking forward to seeing that in campaign ads all across the country in 2020.

    Sheer genius...
     
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  24. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    I can't even BEGIN to tell how completely WRONG you are. :) I knew by your second sentence you were a victim of our own old Cold War propaganda, that purposely blurred the differences between socialism & communism--convincing most Americans, wrongly, that they were kissing cousins with each other. They're NOT. Socialism & communism are two very distinct, different entities. Your post bases its entire argument on the history of communism, but inappropriately berates socialism as the culprit. Your post confirmed my conviction when you discussed "Bolsheviks" and "comrades"--both affiliated with communism only.

    Democratic Socialism is the distinct opposite of communism in every way. Countries where Democratic Socialism is empowered today in W Europe, have MORE freedoms & human rights than we enjoy here in America. I'm not kidding. I'm not exaggerating. It's true. Neither you or anyone else has anything to fear from the Democratic Socialists within the Democratic Party. They want to help those of us left out from all the new financial wealth produced by our country over the last three decades. They want every American to have the RIGHT to access to healthcare for themselves & their families, without question, and for treatment including pre-existing conditions. Democratic Socialists are capitalist supporters with a heart. They care about the 80% of Americans who currently live from paycheck to paycheck. They want to improve these peoples' lives. Doing nothing but finding fault with these people & decrying them as "communists," does a disservice to them and to the truth as well.
     
  25. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you actually can't respond to my post, you can only deflect. I get it.
     

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