press freedom and governments.....

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by m2catter, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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  2. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    I sincerely hope Julian Assange is freed soon and he can continue his important work!!!!
    Reg.
     
  3. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes I saw this in the news yesterday, second hand government furniture shop finding classified documents in a cabinet for sale

    re this comment M ^^^ are you suggesting the documents should have been published? I thoroughly disagree with you, I believe this assumption of the current age that it's a good idea to publish classified documents and that they are public property is absurd. Snowden did immeasurable damage to the NSA and only caused other security agencies to duplicate the NSA's eavesdropping techniques. Other documents published by Assange, had their scandalous moment in the sun then everyone moved on.... there's no real benefit unless individuals are investigated and brought to justice. This can be done without publishing classified documents.
     
  4. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    My first thought is that you didn't read past the headline:

    Pretty pathetic 'rampage' that leaves the rampagee with access to the classified documents.

    Those still in the Assange Cult (repeat 'lying Swedish bitches' and 'CIA honey trap' after me kiddies) might take note of an important detail here. The ABC has published details of Cabinet discussions, but help off on more sensitive 'national security' info. While the former are indeed classified, they are essentially policy discussions. There are good reasons to keep them private, but publishing details is unlikely to do more than embarrass. This is the sort of stuff that was in the Pentagon Papers, to which Wikileaks is repeatedly & erroneously compared. More sensitive info should be treated more carefully. Simply putting it all out on the internet is criminal. The ABC has acted as any responsible media organization should.

    Assange & Wikileaks stopped being any sort of 'honest broker' years ago. He has been shilling for Putin & working to get Trump elected. Not even trying to hide it. I hope he spends another 5 years in that Ecuadorian bathroom....provided the women in the Embassy are kept at a safe distance.
     
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  5. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm,
    okay, I think we have an interesting subject. When is publishing allowed or desperately needed, and when not? When is the public informed, only when it suits the government?
    Hell ya I think Assange is needed, and the more Assange this planet has, the more difficult it becomes for governments and dictators to govern outside the law.
    All those Erdogans, Abbotts, Xi Pings, Baby face Kim Jong-un or child brain Trump and other (mainly) right wingers can only do, because they keep the truth from the public.
    Bf, rampage or negotiations, at the end ABC can do nothing (negotiations are a farce), as so called national interests/secrets are deemed more important.
    You know it, I know it. Its like the East Timor debacle, when ASIO raided the office of their (ET) Australian lawyer. Same thing....
    Reg.
     
  6. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problem though is Assange doesn't publish anything on the
    and as BF pointed out he's on Putin's payroll, which hardly makes him unbiased
     
  7. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    sw,
    please provide valid information. It would be a shame if that is true....
    By the way, I regard Putin as bad as the above mentioned, if not worse.
    Reg.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  8. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Spot on.

    Assange isn't out there cutting the legs out from under Putin, Assad or some of the real nasty dictators out there he's trying to get Trump elected and whoring for a dictator. We have enough gutter crawlers in the world. The original concept of Wikileaks was a decent idea. Sadly once it became a prop for Assange's monstrous ego it departed from that mission.

    There is some fascinating detail in this article, including his characteristic attack on a female journalist who helped to found the Freedom of the Press Foundation when she dared to question him. Even supporters and collaborators such as Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald have criticized Wikileaks for its reckless publication of information, including info that could allow hackers to get into people's mobile phones.

    I am a lot more sympathetic to Snowden, who at least appears to be motivated by some sort of principles.
     
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  9. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Yes, good topic.

    You do get that Wikileaks actively supported Trump to the extent that it actually contacted his campaign in an attempt to co-ordinate. Assange also had a TV show on RT - one of Russia's propaganda outlets. Then there was the Farage visit, giving documents to the President of Belarus and publishing the emails of ordinary Turks writing to Erdogan's party. Assange isn't exposing the right, he is collaborating with it. You need to do a bit more reading.

    Um, no it isn't.

    The ABC still has access to the documents. It can publish them if it wishes, though clearly it risks legal consequences. It can copy the documents & leak them if it wishes, though that also may pose a legal risk. I guess the question is if they think the information is important enough to risk the legal sanction. Some information should be kept secret, at least for a time. Certainly not everything that governments want kept secret, but some. I'm glad the ABC is responsible enough to recognize that.

    Kicking down the doors in the E Timor case offers no worthwhile comparison here.
     
  10. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's many articles online if you looked, I found this one probably the best.. there's a lot in it but I'll quote a few small pieces

    https://www.vox.com/world/2017/1/6/14179240/wikileaks-russia-ties

    Outrageous to think he's criticising the Panama Papers leaks... supposed warrior of truth... in my opinion the Panama papers is one of the best events ever and the sort of thing that should be leaked online, not government documents that result in serious damage to national security.

     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  11. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    If he has made any sort of money, I hope Assange has repaid Jemima Goldsmith the bail money he forfeited when he jumped bail.
     
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  12. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Hi sw,
    that leaves some doubts over Assange, that's for sure.
    However, the best defense for the emerging Wests actions is to blame him in a way that relates him to Russia.
    On the other side, not too much is known of other countries wrong doings, that includes Russia.
    Yes to get some credibility back, Assange needs to publish papers or else about Putin and his clowns.

    See,
    the way things go we are on a path into another big one. I don't want this, I don't need this, the world doesn't need it.
    I believe if people can see what their respective governments are doing behind closed doors, they might wake up.
    In that sense Assange still is important, but being single sided isn't that helpful or appreciated.
    Reg.
     
  13. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think it's very telling that whoever hacked the source for the Panama Papers did not trust Wikileaks with this information. Instead sent it to a reputable journalist who set up a syndicate.

    Imagine Assange handing this information over to Putin, he would 1. suppress it and 2. use it as leverage against some very powerful people. The Assange/Putin relationship is no minor issue.
     
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  14. Adultmale

    Adultmale Active Member Past Donor

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    It is not just government, universities and the scientific community also try to muzzle any criticism and/or dissent of current PC theories. Google 'Peter Rid'.
     
  15. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    bf,
    do some reading yourself:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-01/asio-takes-custody-of-cabinet-documents/9386328

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...alists-could-have-faced-15-years-jail/9387862

    The papers are returned, press freedom is almost gone!
    Is that the Australia you want to have? I certainly don't.

    But in regards to Assange, we might need other Assanges to show the wrong doings of Putin and others.
    I have to admit, didn't think he was that Putin friendly....

    But once the press freedom is limited, we are on our way out. And as it looks, this process is already on its way.....
    Shame on our government!
    Reg.
     
  16. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm,
    and no one on this forum has ever asked "where are the limits"? Aren't you guys/girls scared or do you just don't want to know?

    Shouldn't we know about it?
    Just imagine K.Rudd had lied over the roof insulation scheme in regards to potential danger for tradies, shouldn't he stand trial?
    Just imagine J.Howard knew that the Iraq War was staged, shouldn't he stand trial for murdering several hundred of thousand Iraqis?
    Just imagine that stopping the boats wasn't to save people from drowning, but to keep the Muslims out, should't T.Abbott face a court?
    Just imagine.....

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  17. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    I thought it was the tradies who'd lied, when they used unskilled people to instal the batts?
    Don't know about john Howard, but saving lives by stopping the boats was one of the most cynical utterances to come out of a politicians mouth. Words can't describe my opinion of that toad of an Abbott!
     
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  18. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    If Rudd was advised of possible dangers he could have outlined the job a bit more in detail. Of course you are right, tradies are after every cent they can make, and using unskilled workers provided them with even a bigger earning.
    Yeap and Abbott is Abbott, just imagine living with a family where one part is ultra conservative right, while your own sister enjoys the partnership with another woman (good on her anyway).
    Tony is Tony, a little bit like Trump, with a very narrow minded view.....
    Have a great weekend,
    reg.
     
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  19. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    There has already been a Royal Commission into the 'Pink Batts' program. The documents in the safe (which were in the possession of the Government that launched the Commission) were apparently presented there. If there was enough evidence for a trial it would have come out then.

    I am not aware that Australian forces killed 'hundreds of thousands' of Iraqis when Howard was PM. I'm not even aware we killed thousands or hundreds. Feel free to present some credible evidence about how many non-combatants Australian forces killed and what evidence there is that meets the level required for a trial of a PM. (if you don't have any don't spam the thread with questionable assertions, its all been done before).

    Stopping the boats did save lives & continues to do so. That wasn't why the Libs did it. In fact, they torpedoed the earlier 'people swap' that might have saved lives, so we can safely assume they didn't give a stuff. However, there are no longer hundreds of people a year drowning in an attempt to get to Australia. The people coming by boat weren't just Muslim. There were Hindus and Christians too (and possibly others). What is the basis for the court case? A government lie?
     
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  20. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    Spoken like a true Liberal/National.

    The Iraq War never happened, our pilots didn't fly over and dropped their nuggets.
    Oh yes, of course, it was all the Yanks fault.
    Grow up bf, war is a dirty business, and our part in the Iraq war cannot be denied.
    Questioning how much our soldiers killed is trying to avoid any guilt and to shift the blame towards others.
    It is dishonest!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

    In regards to stopping the boats,
    similar scenario, the majority of people from these war zones are Muslim (of course you are right and some hold a different belief).
    It is our responsibility to take them in until their countries are at peace again, especially those countries we helped to fukk up, like Iraq or Afghanistan.
    I am not saying we should keep them forever, but it is our obligation to help.
    It is something humans do, especially when at fault !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You are expressing a certain right wing attitude, and I feel at unease with. We had a discussion recently, remember, about the Palestinianns and Israel.
    Same thing, it is not good enough to make Jerusalem Israeli's capital only, it is the capital of the Palestinians as well.

    Reg.
     
  21. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Spoken like someone used to putting a complex world into simplistic boxes.

    I'm a lifelong union member, lifelong ALP & occasional Greens voter (with a single very sensible exception in 30 years) and some time ALP member. I've spent my entire life around lefties & I'm proud to be one of them despite the profound idiocy that exists in some quarters of that noble tradition.

    How about you grow up and actually present some evidence that Howard qualifies for a trial of some sort.

    You raised the issue of lives being saved, now you don't want to talk about it. You raised the issue of putting Abbott on trial, but now that I've asked you to explain why you won't offer a reason, let alone a cogent argument about criminality.

    You probably missed this while you were wringing your hands, but we resettle more migrants per capita than any other nation in the world that isn't called the USA. I am pleased & proud that we do and I want to continue doing that on a needs basis. If you can afford to fly to Malaysia or Indonesia you aren't remotely as in need as someone stuck in a camp in Kenya, the DRC, Jordan or Bangladesh. I want those people given priority regardless of religion and I don't want our actions to encourage people to take fatal and unnecessary risks.

    Clearly you are comfortable being complicit in the drownings of hundreds of people annually. I am not.

    ....and now you drag Palestine into the argument. So you've stopped talking about freedom of the press and these fanciful trials and have changed the topic to me. Rather telling really - playing the man, presumably because you have no confidence you can play the ball.

    If my views make you uneasy then I'm probably on the correct path.

    If you think that because I don't tick your particular boxes for 'left wing' that I'm 'right wing' I have to call into question any & all judgments you might choose to make. Such a simplistic view is especially short sighted coming from someone so obsessed with Israel - which puts you in company with violent religious terrorists & anti-semites among others. I'm happy to apply the same simplistic standards to you if you'd like.
     
  22. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-08/fact-file-australias-refugee-intake/6759456

    http://insidestory.org.au/how-many-migrants-come-to-australia-each-year/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe#2013_data

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-21/where-does-australia-rank-on-its-refugee-intake/7864070

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-21/fact-check-george-brandis-refugees-per-capita/9241276

    You like figures, go figure.
    I stand by my observation, far too much on the right side for my liking.
    And if you write 10 times as much, the pattern is clear.
    No hard feelings nevertheless,
    reg.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  23. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Go figure what? What does this have to do with Abbott being tried....or anything really. Grownups at least attempt to mount an argument.

    And I stand by my observations about your inability to process any level of complexity. usually a side effect of lack of intelligence or excess of ideology. Its all very 'four legs good, two legs bad'. I'll just throw you on the pile with the rest of the drones.
     
  24. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

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    See,
    I told you I feel at unease with your right wingers mindset, but also told you:
    "no hard feelings nevertheless"
    But I wouldn't go as far as to insult you the way you do.
    There have been times when I looked forward to your comments, but the way this progresses I think I will take a break.
    You went too far, apology requested!
    Reg.
     
  25. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    You have repeatedly insulted me, even after I made it clear that you were wrong. Furthermore, they were utterly gratuitous insults - you dragged the thread off course specifically to insult me rather than respond to the points I have made (I won't hold my breath waiting for that response). You even dragged in some discussion from weeks ago on a completely different topic. Tacking 'no hard feelings' on the end doesn't lessen the insult.

    I didn't see you apologizing when I made it clear you were wrong. In fact, you just doubled down.

    Rather than insulting you in an attempt to distract from my inability to argue points I had myself raised, I simply responded in kind. Yet somehow you've made yourself into the victim. If you can't take it then don't go dishing it out. Spare me the sooking. Put me on ignore if you can't deal with the idea of someone returning serve. This website has dozens more like you.
     

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