Public Funding for Abortion

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by TheNightFly, May 19, 2017.

  1. SillyAmerican

    SillyAmerican Well-Known Member

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    If Planned Parenthood does not get tax monies for use in abortions, then the subject of this thread (public funding of abortion) is moot.

    As to your attacks against me:
    • I don't want women's lives to be harder, I don't want unwanted children to be brought into this world, and I don't want my money used to pay for abortions. Clear enough?
    • I don't want to impose my morals on anybody. Likewise, I do not want people imposing their morals on me by forcing me to give up my money to pay for abortions. Clear enough?
    No, the underlying question is whether the Constitution can impose the answer to a question like when human life begins. It can't. The Supreme Court has said, however, that it can be used to state that a mother's wishes take precedence during her pregnancy, and that she has the right to access a medical procedure to end that pregnancy, a procedure which many find morally objectionable. This is a classic clash of rights: a woman's right to have an abortion (which I believe falls into the category of settled law), and my right not to have to pay for a procedure which many find objectionable (which I'm not sure has ever been ruled on). You may believe that an abortion is no different than an appendectomy, and insist that the two procedures be treated in the same way, but I'm sorry, you can't mandate my feelings on the subject. (Or does the Constitution allow you to do that these days? I'm no longer sure...).
     
  2. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You don't pay for abortions......and I'd be glad to know you do not want your opinion turned into law.




    Planned Parenthood does not get tax money for abortions (it's easily googled)

    See, you wouldn't even have had to post ! :)

    It's still funny how you don't want taxes to go to abortion but don't mind BILLIONS more being spent on slaughtering actual people in war.....very odd.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  3. SillyAmerican

    SillyAmerican Well-Known Member

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    As I said earlier, the whole topic is moot if tax dollars aren't in play. But someone started the discussion, so I see no reason why I can't express an opinion.

    As to not wanting tax dollars to go to abortion, and wanting tax dollars to go to the military, that's an easy one to answer. To my knowledge, a fetus has never actively tried to hurt an American citizen. The other side of the equation? There are those in this world who are interested in hurting American citizens. One of the few things which the federal government is actually made responsible for, as indicated in the Constitution, is seeing to the common defense. (You like Google; feel free to read up on it). I hope that's clear enough.
     
  4. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    Compulsory funding of elective abortions is settled US law, and is a matter for states to boot, not the federal government. Read some of the actual cases if interested.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/432/438

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/432/464

    "Self defense" analysis is inapposite, is -also- a state law matter, not federal, and is ludicrous on its face anyway, utterly invalidated by Roe v Wade's (para) "interest of the state in promoting human life" that leads to that case's "trimester" system. There could not be legitimate "self-defense" in one trimester yet not in others.

    A fetus will NEVER be considered in the eyes of our actual law (i.e. not feminist, moonbat gibberish) as a "threat" unless the mother's life is materially endangered by the pregnancy. You can take that claim of fact to the bank.

    Finally, the state is not responsible for nor empowered to subsidize individual self-defense measures, especially when the extent of the "threat" is entirely subjective on a case-by-case basis, a precious baby one moment and an intruder the next. Does the government have to buy me a gun or other weapons, alarm system and bars for my windows if I feel threatened by my neighbor?
     
    cyndibru and headhawg7 like this.
  5. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    The OP needs to do some research before they open their mouth. IT IS ALREADY ILLEGAL TO PAY FOR ABORTIONS USING FEDERAL TAX MONEY. SO PLEASE SHUT THE **** UP!
     
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    A. A fetus harms the woman it's in.

    B. Civilians, babies, pregnant women , the elderly , children, all are killed in war.....and not all of them have tried to harm you or anyone else. Their lives are just as "precious" as any fetus....

    C. It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, I was addressing YOU and your happiness at funding war ( killing innocent civilians) but not a legal medical procedure.
     
  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by "materially" endangered?

    ALL pregnancies cause harm to women....the same kind of harm that all other persons can fight off through self defense.

    Some states even describe pregnancy as a bodily harm (makes rape sentences more severe)


    BUT self -defense is only an issue IF the fetus is ever deemed a person.

    It isn't, so "self defense" is not an issue.
     
  8. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    Maybe in "Alien," not in U.S. law though, other than exigent cases, and that will -never- change. Rape aggravating conditions are no more apposite than self-defense is generally, don't even try.

    But you know, I -did- hear somewhere that LW pregnancies are a bit different than others:



    You and some others in the thread need to actually go and -read- Roe v Wade, not feminist blogs and prattle.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Please show proof that NONE of the following happens during pregnancy:



    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:


    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.





    Here's my post you cherry picked:


    """What do you mean by "materially" endangered? Unanswered.

    ALL pregnancies cause harm to women....the same kind of harm that all other persons can fight off through self defense.

    Some states even describe pregnancy as a bodily harm (makes rape sentences more severe)


    BUT self -defense is only an issue IF the fetus is ever deemed a person.

    It isn't, so "self defense" is not an issue.""

    COMPLETELY unaddressed......
     
  10. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    No. Read and learn the actual law in this country. I've already given you a head start with case cites. You can't "wall o cut paste" that into a different reality than the only one that exists, though lordy knows its not for lack of LW trying.
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Nice cherry picking...good way to hide :)
     
  12. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Planned Parenthood does not receive any funding for abortion because it's against the law. Planned Parenthood has been repeatedly audited and has demonstrated that it doesn't spend a dime of government money on abortion that Planned Parenthood accounts for independently of it's primary reproductive health services for women.

    So the issue of the thread is then moot.

    Determining when human life begins is a moot issue because it doesn't matter.

    As the US Supreme Court determined in Roe v Wade, and that was not disputed in the dissenting opinion, the Constitution isn't concerned about when life begins. The Constitution is only concerned with the "person" and the "person" begins at birth and that undisputed in the dissenting opinion. Constitutionally protected "rights" only exist for the "person" and that was also undisputed in the dissenting opinion.

    The Constitution could be amended to grant "personhood" to the preborn but not even that would change anything significantly. The woman would still retain the "right" to have the "preborn" removed from her body because the "preborn" doesn't have a "right to exist" inside of her body. It could change the surgical procedure to "surgical delivery" where the preborn is removed unharmed and intact but prior to viability the "preborn" once removed would die of natural causes. That would add additional costs for any "surgical delivery" prior to viability without any benefit but arguably the requirement could be imposed.

    That isn't what the Supreme Court decided. The Supreme Court determined in Roe v Wade that the "woman" was the only person with Constitutionally protected rights related to her own body. There were actually two different actions in the Roe v Wade decision. First was that all abortion restrictions and prohibitions were unconstitutional because the woman was the only "person" with rights to her own body. This was an "originalist" interpretation of the US Constitution and if Roe v Wade would have ended with the striking down of all abortion laws then there would be no controversy related to the Roe v Wade decision because that part was a "conservative" (originalist) interpretation.

    It was the creation of the "potential person" based upon the non-originalism of "pragmatism" and "natural rights" that created the controversy in the Roe v Wade decision. The breaking up of the pregnancy into "trimesters" under the proposition of protecting the "potential rights" of the "potential person" that reflected "legislating from the bench" or "judicial activism" that some Americans oppose.

    You don't pay for abortion unless you're someone like me because I donate to Planned Parenthood that does provide abortions.

    Like all Americans you pay taxes and when it comes to federal taxation you don't even have any say in what is taxed or what that money is spent on by the federal government. Just because you or I have a moral objection to what the federal government spends tax dollars on doesn't have anything to do with the taxes we pay as individuals.

    I opposed Trump using the MOAB in Afghanistan (I oppose US troops being in Afghanistan) on moral grounds and guess what. It doesn't matter because I didn't personally pay for the bomb or for the deployment of US troops in Afghanistan.

    You wouldn't be spending a dime of your money on abortion if the government funds abortion.
     
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  13. SillyAmerican

    SillyAmerican Well-Known Member

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    So we are at least in agreement on this point.

    When human life begins might not matter for the purposes of the Roe decision, but if you're saying it does not matter as a question, I respectfully disagree. True, the Constitution does not get into the question of when life begins, and determines that "personhood" begins at birth. This fact makes for interesting case law. For instance, when initiating an abortion, a doctor is concerned with the well being of exactly one patient: the mother. But if a live baby is pulled from the womb, the doctor must immediately shift gears and become concerned with the well being of two patients.

    The dissenting opinion by Justice William Rehnquist is fairly clear about one reason for Roe being looked on as legislating from the bench: The Court uses ["Roe's"] complaint against the Texas statute as a fulcrum for deciding that States may impose virtually no restrictions on medical abortions performed during the first trimester of pregnancy. In deciding such a hypothetical lawsuit, the Court departs from the longstanding admonition that it should never "formulate a rule of constitutional law broader than is required by the precise facts to which it is to be applied."

    Yes, I know, I know. The government spends everybody's money. And everybody's money is nobody's money. And it's very easy to spend nobody's money, because nobody can say anything about how it's being spent. Welcome to government spending.
     
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  14. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    An abortion which is gotten solely by choice is the responsibility of the mother to pay for. Tax money can only be used to cover the costs of abortion which are needed for health reason. Under your logic, the government should fund any "medical" procedure which doesn't effect health, such as plastic surgery.
     
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  15. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Lung cancer, gotten from thirty years of smoking, shall have its treatment paid for by the smoker
     
  16. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously comparing cancer treatments, which are used to treat a HEALTH CONCERN, to an abortion which is gotten solely because a woman decided she didn't want a kid when the pregnancy doesn't endanger her health in any way shape or form?
     
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  17. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Women die in pregnancy every day.....but something tells me you will be pretty safe
     
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  18. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more. Let's remove people who engage in harmful behavior like drugs, smoking, drinking, overeating, violent crime from the Medicare, Medicaid, and other welfare rolls yesterday. Then, let's replace food stamps with locally funded and administered comprehensive basic lifestyle clinics where people can go and get a free simple, nutritious meal of beans, salad and vegetables/fruit, attend free exercise classes, and receive substance/family counseling. Will be funded by defunding planned parenthood and SNAP entirely at the federal level.
     
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  19. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Now you only have to name one politician that supports that wacky plan. LOL
     
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    ALL pregnancies endanger women's health....cause permanent damage to their bodies...


    ...NO, pregnancy isn't just morning sickness and then delivery .....


    HOWEVER, you are correct in thinking a woman can get an abortion for any reason SHE chooses.:) :) :)
     
  21. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Unless you are in a Third World country, deliberately avoiding regular medical care, or part of a high risk group in the first place, pregnancy is not a significant health risk. Certainly not when compared to other routine dangers of living from day to day.
     
  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So you want to defund PP so women have less access to birth control so they have more kids so the government has more people to spend money on with your "plan" for controlling people's lives ....gee, you sure love BIG government!
     
  23. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Well certainly not for you.....since you are not one of the women that will dies today in childbirth
     
  24. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    You know what's "wacky?" people so stupid that they don't realize our current food stamp and "welfare" programs are sops to large entrenched corporate DONORS. Know what else is wacky? Giving people a card (instead of actual wholesome food) they can trade for cigs, beer, drugs, or buy candy, chips and soda outright, then sticking the taxpayer with their medical bills when our social experiment with a permanent, double digit IQ underclass goes tits up. That's f-ing WACK. Know what else is wacky? Setting up a single motherhood cabin industry for the purpose of enlarging the whole sick thing and farming votes.

    One of the only reasons I support regulated abortion is that it retards that dysgenic, immoral, rotten Democrat vote factory if only a little.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I just adore how those who were never pregnant denigrate what their mothers and wives went through to produce children....ya, right, just a little morning sickness and then after 9 months of bliss a baby just slides out and the woman just feels an orgasm....

    Look up maternal mortality for the US




    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:



    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017

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