Putin brags Russia's new hypersonic missiles 'can wipe out US cities' sparking WW3 fears

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Destroyer of illusions, Oct 17, 2021.

  1. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was a quote from Stalin... oh well... it makes the point. I like the Electoral College. It's one of the few things that still reflects the fact that we are a union of STATES.
     
  2. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    I said I never saw America send another nation to war. Heck, Americans gave freely to many things through the years. But I never saw the government itself sanction Hitler, or the IRA for that matter, although some Americans supported both.
     
  3. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    Stalin paraphrased the words of Napoleon III, but in a slightly different way. Comrade Stalin's words sound like this: "In the Bourgeois countries, it is not important how they vote, it is important how they count." Agree, the meaning of the statement is radically different.
    Comrade Stalin is credited with many phrases that he did not say or are pulled out of context.
    For example, he is credited with the phrase "No man, no problem." Comrade Stalin never said that. This statement was invented by the writer A. Rybakov and attributed it to "literary Stalin" in his book "Children of the Arbat".
    Or another example - Comrade Stalin is credited with the quote "The death of a man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic." Stalin never said that either. This quote is taken from the novel by the notorious writer Erich Maria Remarque, The Black Obelisk ... And there are many more phrases that are attributed to Comrade Stalin, but which he never said.
    Just wanting to denigrate Comrade Stalin, many scoundrels come up with false quotes or false facts. For example, they tell tales about the "bloody gulag" and other nonsense about the alleged tyranny of Stalin.
    By the way, I have asked many times to show at least one proof of "tyranny", but no one has ever been able to do this. The maximum is given by links to stupid and unsubstantiated articles in Wikipedia or refer to the science fiction novel by Solzhenitsyn "The Archipilag of the Gulag". Yes, sometimes this or that character begins to write nonsense about the "Execution of Poles in Katyn". Despite the fact that the international court denied the Poles a claim against Russia in the "Katyn case". The court examined the alleged Polish "evidence" and found it to be falsified. Therefore, I repeat - no one has ever been able to show real evidence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  4. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    It's a long conversation, but I'll try ...
    Who really financed Hitler's rise to power? Historians still do not agree on this point: some believe that the Nazis were secretly kept by the German Reichswehr, who cherished the dream of revenge after the defeat in the First World War, others argue that the main sponsors of the Fuhrer were German industrialists. when, at the Nuremberg Trials, ex-President of the Reichsbank and Minister of Economy Hjalmar Schacht proposed to put in the dock for the sake of justice those who nurtured the Third Reich, mentioning the American corporations General Motors and Ford, as well as the personal manager of the Bank of England Norman Montague - the Americans made a deal with him, promising freedom in exchange for silence. And the International Military Tribunal fully acquitted Schacht despite the protests of Soviet lawyers.
    At the initial stage of his party career, the secret of Anglo-Saxon aid to Hitler was taken to the grave by two people - an inconspicuous at first glance Swiss financier Wilhelm Gustloff (it is no coincidence that the Fuhrer will posthumously assign his name to the largest cruise ship in Germany) and the NSDAP treasurer Franz Schwarz. Hjalmar Schacht called Gustloff, who was killed in 1936 in Davos, Switzerland, by a young student, as a "permanent intermediary" between British and American corporations, on the one hand, and the Nazis, on the other (according to some sources, Gustloff mediated from 1925 to 1929). As for SS Obergruppenfuehrer Schwarz, he died no less strange than Gustloff: on December 2, 1947, he was supposed to be released from the filtration camp in Regensburg, but the general did not go free. He had breakfast, felt bad and after an hour and a half died - "due to stomach problems", as noted in the medical report. In April 1945, Schwartz burned in the "brown house" (the headquarters of the NSDAP in Munich) all financial documents that could compromise the representatives of the victorious countries, and for this reason he naively counted on leniency.
    But despite the fact that two of the most important witnesses were forever silent, some historians still managed to get evidence of the Anglo-Saxon sponsorship of Hitler and his henchmen. In particular, the Italian Guido Giacomo Preparata, who devoted almost two decades to the study of the Nazis' ties with the business circles of London and Washington, named those who brought the “browns” to power by name: “Who financed the Nazis from the very beginning? According to a funny tale, persistently implanted in society, the Nazis financed themselves by collecting money at rallies. " And further, the Preparation convincingly proves that most of the funds of the Nazi Party were of foreign origin. The overseas financial clans of the Morgan and Rockefellers, through the Chase National bank, promoted the shares of IG Farbenindustrie and a number of other German chemical plants on Wall Street (later the brainchild of Krupp came under the control of the Rockefeller Standard Oil), and the bank of Dillon and Reed - Vereinigte Stahlwerke Alfred Thiessen. “By 1933, when it became clear with irrefutable clarity that AEG had financed Hitler,” wrote Preparata, “30% of the shares belonged to its American partner, General Electric. Thus, the historian believes, “for 15 years, from 1919 to 1933, the Anglo-Saxon elite actively intervened in German politics, intending to create an obscurantist movement, which could later be used as a pawn in a great geopolitical intrigue ...
    It was not England and America that created Hitlerism, but it was they who created the conditions in which only this phenomenon could appear.
    And here is what another researcher of financial flows that flocked to Hitler, the German historian Joachim Fest, wrote: "In the fall of 1923 Hitler went to Zurich and returned from there, as they said," with a chest full of Swiss francs and dollar bills. " That is, on the eve of the attempt at the beer putsch, someone allocated a substantial sum in foreign currency to the future Fuhrer. " This "someone", according to some reports, was none other than Sir Henry Deterding, head of the Anglo-Dutch concern Shell. He would later finance Hitler through Wilhelm Gustloff.
    It is noteworthy that Vogler and Schroeder were not German, but American businessmen - they earned their capital mainly overseas. Among Hitler's sponsors were other controversial figures - for example, the head of IG Farbenindustrie Max Warburg - the brother of the director of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Paul Warburg. Or Karl Bosch, head of the German division of the Ford Motor Company.
    Speaking of Ford: in 1931, a journalist from the American newspaper Detroit News, who came to Germany to interview a promising politician Adolf Hitler, was surprised to see a portrait of a person she knew well, Henry Ford, above his desk. "I consider him my inspiration," Hitler explained. But Ford was not only the mastermind of the main Nazi, but also a generous sponsor. Ford and Hitler agreed on the basis of their inherent anti-Semitism. Back in the early 1920s, "Grandpa Ford" at his own expense published and sent to Germany a half-million circulation of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and then two of his books - "World Jewry" and "Activities of Jews in America". In the late 1920s and early 1930s, Ford, according to some sources, generously fed the NSDAP (written evidence of Franz Schwartz has been preserved on this score - however, he never named specific amounts). And as a token of gratitude, Hitler awarded Ford with the Grand Cross of the German Eagle - the highest award of the Reich, which could be awarded to a foreigner. This happened on July 30, 1938 in Detroit, at a festive dinner, which was attended by about one and a half thousand eminent Americans. The order was presented by the German consul. Ford, they say, was so emotional that he even burst into tears. After that, Ford took over the full financing of Hitler's "people's car" project - he ultimately got 100% of the shares of the newly formed Volkswagen concern.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  5. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    The latter is true. Germany's big business guys lifted Adolph to the top.

    They thought they could use him as a puppet to satisfy their needs. But they were wrong. As soon as Adolph was Chancellor, he did start his own thing. He didn't care about his former sponsors.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Look mate -- never said or inferrred any of what you have applied to me - Why you are compelled to make up false stories which you attribute to others I do not know.

    It was me who has been explaining the technology to you -- not the reverse .. and "you obivously don't understand" CHAMP is not for ICBMs -- which are going to be sheilded from electronic counter measures anyway.
     
  7. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    While your post is overflowing with quotation marks, it is sadly lacking in source information. It makes little difference I guess. So long ago it really doesn't make much difference. Although I find the Nazi saga fascinating and I have an inherent interest in war and the backgrounds that accompany the wars as a West Point graduate, I also realize that I'm retired now and my interests are more about what happens tomorrow than what happened years ago. 2022 is of much more interest to me than 1932. I worry about my kids and grandkids, not my dad and grandpa.
    Just two comments: 1.) I agree... Ford was a bad guy. 2.) Establishing and maintaining a war economy is huge undertaking. I seriously doubt that US players, awash in the Great Depression, had much extra money laying around to help Germany. Some? Sure. But enough to be of significant help? Doubtful. (Except for that pesky Ford guy, of course.)
     
  8. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Again, you do not seem to have a good grasp of the science. CHAMP generates an expanding and contracting magnetic field which generates current in ferrous metals found in microcircuits. Shielding is almost impossible. Its not like "shunting" excess current as in an overload. Shunting takes the flow of electricity and sidetracks it around vulnerable components. In the case of EMP the current BEGINS in every component. Its already there. You can't use a shunt architecture. And since EMP is magnetism, it cannot be shielded against like radiation can, Radiation is made of PARTICLES so that shielding like lead can be very effective. But such shielding is not effective against the magnetism of EMP. Heck, the entire earth cannot shield against magnetism generated in its molten core. That's why we have magnetic poles here on the surface.
    The only way to protect systems against EMP is to use a Faraday Cage. A Faraday Cage must be TOTALLY sealed. Any opening at all renders it useless. And missiles need apertures to run wiring to external sensors like radars and altimeters. They also have great big holes for the propulsion system. So the missile guidance system and their cargo are very vulnerable to the EMP effects of CHAMP.
    By the way, I earned a BSEE from West Point and have worked with high tech weaponry in uniform and out for over 40 years for government agencies like the Army Aviation and Missile Command, Defense Advanced Projects Research Agency, The Army Air Defense Center and School, Training and Doctrine Command, Air Force "Blue Flag", Air Force "Red Flag" and more. I am predisposed to side with these organizations and their people.
     
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  9. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

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    My Uncle graduated 17th from West Point. President John F. Kennedy handed him his diploma - I have the photo. Most amazing person I have ever met. He also lives in Texas.

    Back on topic - excellent explanation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  10. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    We escaped California and moved to Texas four years ago. I'm originally from New York (shhhhh... don't tell anyone). I've lived all over due the military. Settling in Texas is one of the best decisions we ever made. We are watching the blue states hovering in chaos while we watch, unaffected, here on the Texas coast buying Texas gas, eating Texas beef, and drinking Texas beer without masks or mandates.
     
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  11. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

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    My long lost Internet forum brother! I moved here 7-years ago - best decision of my life.
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are in fantasy land .. making stuff up as you go ..

    Prove your claim .. at what range was this weapon effective - for the test conducted - being a chemist .. I have some awareness of the nature of radiation .. and we are not dealing with the power of the earths core .. nor that of a nuclear weapon.

    You are just making stuff up .. hoping .. it is not like these weapons have not been around for years .. and you have no clue about sheilding.. but regardless .. just need the range that you think this weapon is effective at .. where do you set it off 10 meters - 100 meters - 1000 meters.

    Realize that as soon as you answer this question .. with something that is realistic - your argument is lost.
     
  13. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Radiation is made up of PARTICLES... ever hear of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma PARTICLES? EMP is NOT particles, it is magnetism... ever heard the term "lines of force"? The earths core does indeed generate magnetism. Molten ferrous materials in the earth's core move and create magnetism. Ever heard of "magnetic poles"? How do you think a compass works? Magnetism.
    EMP is magnetism... not radiation. When I was stationed in Germany in the 1980's we were briefed that one out of every six Russian "counterbattery radars" were EMP generators with a fan width of 40 degrees and a max range of about 40 kilometers. The Russians were way ahead of us in those days. Now, with CHAMP, we are in better shape.
    You obviously know nothing about how a Faraday Cage works. I described it above, but you seem to have no understanding at all.
    Weapons are what I do. From West Point to Boeing and a few more. This has been my career.
    (And business has been good.)
     
  14. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    American corporations supported Hitler even more.
    For example, American corporations were very active in supporting Nazi Germany, acquiring more than 60 branches in this country. American capital controlled about 300 German companies, including the Steel Trust. The world's largest oil refinery was built in Germany, and the construction was funded by Standard Oil, owned by John Rockefeller. It is necessary to explain what role the production of petroleum products played in the preparations for the war?
    The American corporation General Electric owned German firms working in the field of radio engineering, and General Motors owned the famous German Opel. A plant built by the American company "Ford" operated in Cologne.
    The connection between General Motors and Opel deserves a special mention. Dupont, who controlled General Motors, did not hide his sympathies for National Socialist ideas and financed not only the Nazi party, but also similar political structures in the United States. In the 1930s, the Opel factories in Germany produced automotive equipment for the needs of the German army.
    Interestingly, American corporations controlled virtually all industries that were of strategic military importance. In the event of the outbreak of war, the automotive, radio engineering, petrochemical industries would quickly be transferred to a war footing. Considering, however, that American corporations owned large stakes in the capital of German firms, the business circles of the United States in the event of a war in Europe would begin to receive fabulous profits. Indeed, in conditions of hostilities, military orders do not stop.
    In May 1933, Hjalmar Schacht arrived in the United States. American partners arranged for him to meet with US President Franklin Roosevelt himself. Schacht agreed that Germany received more than a billion dollars worth of American investments. These funds were used to develop German industry.
    The scale of aid to Nazi Germany from leading American corporations was staggering. Thus, Standard Oil invested $ 120 million in Germany, General Motors - $ 35 million, ITT - $ 30 million, Ford - $ 17.5 million. And we must understand that the million dollars of the 1930s is by no means the modern million dollars.
    An important role in cooperation between American business and German officials was played by Baron Kurt von Schroeder, a representative of a well-known banking family in Germany and the United States. There were branches of the Schroeder Bank in the United States and Great Britain, and in the American branch of the bank at one time Allen Dulles worked in senior positions, who during the Second World War was promoted to very significant positions in the American intelligence service and was responsible, in particular, for intelligence operations in the territory Germany.
    To have an idea of the scale of Schroeder's influence on German politics, it is enough to note that the Fuhrer Hitler himself had a personal account in Schroeder's bank - just from 1933, when he came to power. The bank allocated a certain amount of money for the expenses of the chief of the SS, Heinrich Himmler.
    Without the support of German banks connected with the United States, Hitler certainly could not have come to power - any political activity requires considerable funds. But the NSDAP was financed by such banks as Deutsche Bank, Deutsche Kredit Gesellschaft, Henry Schroeder Bank of New York...
    It is worth noting that Schroeder's close circle included Karl Lindemann and Emil Helfrish. These people led the German structures of "Standard Oil", owned by Rockefeller, and they were in the "Himmler circle", sympathizing with Nazism.
    So the United States did a lot for Hitler to come to power.
    By the way, Standard Oil, through the mediation of Panama and Spain, supplied Hitler with petroleum products. Moreover, including the time when American soldiers fought against the Nazis.
    Think of it, German submarines get American fuel in Spanish ports and then go to the Atlantic to sink American ships.
    Also, the Luftwaffe planes were fueled with fuel produced at American enterprises. And this paradoxical situation persisted even after the outbreak of World War II. Hitler's aviation, which fought British planes in the skies over England, flew on American fuel.
    And the Reich Post Office, which was responsible for communications worked closely with the American Telephone and Telegraph company. The shareholder of the telephone company was Walter Schellenberg himself, the head of the VI Directorate (Intelligence Service Abroad) of the Main Directorate of Imperial Security of the RSHA.
     
  15. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any insights into the Pelopenes
    Do you have any insights into the Pelopenesian War, the War of the Austrian Secession, or the Sino-Soviet War? Personally I'm much more interested in the current crises and their implications for 2022.
    But I will add that what the Nazis did with the Reichstag is a mirror image of Jan 6 in DC... look up Roy Epps.
     
  16. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    Everything in the world repeats itself. Therefore, the study of history and the impact of certain economic and political processes in the world can show what awaits us.
    As a military man, you are probably familiar with the political and economic reasons for the First World War. Therefore, you can see that the modern political and economic situation practically completely copies what happened on the eve of the First World War.
    I think that you see this and realize the incredible tension that, with a high degree of probability, can lead to a new world war.
    But I want to point out one difference from the past - Biden is not Roosevelt. This is much worse.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  17. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you still cannot explain why USSR under Stalin was a socialist country and why under Khrushchev it was not?

    Well, maybe you know more about Russian history than you know about socialism, lets see.

    So you don’t trust Wikipedia and you don’t trust the references Wikipedia is quoting?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    is based on the sources:

    Applebaum, Anne (2017). Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine. Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. ISBN 9780385538862.
    Baumeister, Roy (1999). Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty. New York: Henry Holt and Company. ISBN 978-0-8050-7165-8.
    Bilinsky, Yaroslav (1999). "Was the Ukrainian Famine of 1932–1933 Genocide?". Journal of Genocide Research. 1 (2): 147–156. doi:10.1080/14623529908413948. Archived from the original on 15 June 2008. Retrieved 5 June 2006.
    Conquest, Robert (1999). "Comment on Wheatcroft". Europe-Asia Studies. 51 (8): 1479–1483. doi:10.1080/09668139998426. JSTOR 153839.
    Conquest, Robert (2001). Reflections on a Ravaged Century (New ed.). New York: W. W. Norton & Company. ISBN 978-0-393-32086-2.
    Conquest, Robert (2002) [1986]. The Harvest Of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivisation and the Terror-Famine. London: Pimlico. ISBN 978-0-7126-9750-7.

    …and much more.


    Well, maybe you are right, maybe: "Ahahaha [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]..... Wikipedia" is lying.

    You know – you convinced me – now I see the Wikipedia are fake news.
    According to Wikipedia t he Tooth Fairy is a fantasy figure, but "Ahahaha[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]..... Wikipedia" is lying - the Tooth Fairy exist!
    According to "Ahahaha[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]..... Wikipedia" the 2020 election won Biden – fake news – it was won by Trump.
    Yes – now I see, "Ahahaha [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]..... Wikipedia" is lying, only you, President Trump and Pravda know the truth.

    Thank you for spreading PRAVDA.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did not say EMP was particles - and I agree that the earths core generates magnatism - why are you pretending other wise .. what a bunch of moronic nonsense. and and Gamma rays are not particles - but this matters not

    Now tell me what the rainge of this weapon is .. since you know so much about these weapons .. but don't seem to understand the basics - like the fact that magnetism of the earths core does not destroy electronics .. as in intensty of the magnetic field matters.

    Now answer the question mr smarty pants - how close does the pulse have to be to be effective ?
     
  19. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    Can you be aware of what you read? Or is it too hard for your intellect?
    I will repeat once again - I am not interested in politically engaged or pseudo historical novels.
    I am interested in the REAL PROOF.
    And no one can show me this proof. Show, for example, an order where Comrade Stalin orders to shoot a billion people in the GULAG. Or archival data on the number of people shot or arrested during the reign of Comrade Stalin. Can you show it or will continue talking nonsense?
    I can show you such documents. And can you?
    For example, do you know what the abbreviation GULag means? This is in the propaganda of the imbecile, GULAG is something like a prison, but in fact the Gulag stands for the Main (Главное) Directorate (Управление) of the Camps (Легерей). In other words, it is the same institution as the Department of Justice in the United States. This is a regular office for officials. And it is correct to write GULag (no GULAG)
     
  20. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but there are modern complications that make it worse. You point out one by saying Biden is no FDR. FDR would never have surrendered to a Third World country, armed them and abandoned US citizens to them. Another is the internet. Conservative viewpoints are being stifled. Another is the border crisis. Heck, our enemies don't have to attack, they can just sit back and watch as American citizens become a minority in their own country. I fear for my kids and grandkids. But I'm almost glad that I won't have to see the almost certain demise of the USA. I dedicated my life to defending the USA. This is not that place... surrendering to Afghanistan.. abandoning our citizens... arming our enemies.. parents being called "terrorists" for being active PTA members... irresponsible government spending... defunding cops... cities looted and burned... criminals, even murderers freed without bail... danger, not safety, on the streets... corporations stifling free speech... government control of our medical care... mandates to be obeyed.. These are not the things both my parents fought for in WWII, nor what I had in mind when I decided on an Army career.
     
  21. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    The range is obviously classified. But if the Russians had EMP generators good for 40 kilometers in the 1980's we can speculate its further than that in 2021.

    CHAMP is a DIRECTED energy weapon, not simply magnetism in all directions. You know, like the difference between a lightbulb illuminating in all directions versus a lazer which is COHERENT light. Gees, I'm always forced to get back to high school level basics trying to eplain to you. Its not the stimulating conversation I had hoped for.
     
  22. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Sure, they did after Adolph came to power, just as their German colleagues did before he became Chancellor. By the way, with the same motive: to exploit him to make money.

    But the Americans failed just as the Germans failed. Adolph didn't give a sh*t about his donors!
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An EMP generator is not a missile -- it is a matter of how much power you have .. like the difference between "a lightbulb vs a football stadium"

    Your laughable mistake doubly humorous .. as you go on to claim to be the teacher ...of one who has a degree in Chemistry ... and seemingly knows a whole lot more about missile technology -and even this latest gizmo ... than you... Wonder how many battery packs they need to get enough power... how about we downsize your laughable 40 km esimate .. which was based on a demonstrably false comparison .. due to your lack of understanding of "Power" and how it relates to field strength ... yammering on about "The earths magnetic field" .... in some .. what whas it hat you said "High school" ... perhaps it was the backwards class .. not sure what HS you went to .. but most HS can figure out this basic equation .. which hasn't changed since 1980 btw ..

    now bugger off .. and go find a valid argument -- Good luck getting to an ICBM . within 1 km . and targeting correctly without GPS or long range radar - .. desperately hoping that you have enough power to beam me up scottie. ... as this has never been tested at 1 km before ... 10 meters being the normal range .. but we put alot of power behind this one ..

    Ya mon ... you da Champ .. but no Champ's coming to your rescue when the lights go out .. your cell phone .. and in darkness you wait for the dirt nap :)
     
  24. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

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    To be quite honest, a war of the big three (United States, Russia, China) would be very bad for the United States. Russia and China are not friends but they’re not enemies either. They will team up on us and all NATO allies. We may win the war but we won’t win without tremendous casualties. It would be horrible in the best case scenario.

    The Russians and Chinese also know this. No one I hope wants this.
     
  25. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    CHAMP is indeed a missile which CARRIES an EMP generator on it. EMP can induce current with very little power. Heck... try putting a metal can in your kitchen microwave and see what happens. Your claim that a massive amount of power is required is simply not true. You have very little understanding of the Physics involved... Physics, not chemistry.

    My reference to the earth's magnetic field was about your silliness that shielding could defend against battlefield EMP. My statement was that the earth itself cannot shield magnetism... that's why we have magnetic poles and compasses work. Please do not take things out of context...

    By the way, it has long been known that GPS will get you "in theatre" but after that enemy MIJI will render GPS fairly useless. That's why everything from missiles to people have inertial systems as backup. Your silly claim of ten meter range really shows how little you know about CHAMP. Its a Boeing product and they have some good info about it online. You really should read up on it a bit before you make such silly statements.

    You really know nothing at all about this subject.
     

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