Putin Won't have it! WW2 was Wests' fault. Hitler was created and pushed to attack Russia.

Poland didn't exist when WWI broke out.
It was created by the Versailles treaty, out of parts of Germany.
Actually.. it was created from the dominant part of German empire, Prussia.
First German emperor of Germany, was the king of Prussia.
Prussia is almost all in Poland these days.

So yeah. The separation of the most dominant part of Germany away from Germany is the blame of the west.
The war of the Germans to retake what was ancestral theirs is just logical.
But it seems this is all totally new to you.

Putin is just saying what is generally well accepted history.

 

Contempt for other races included Jews, Gypsies, Slavs.
There wasn't that level of contempt for Americans, French, Belgium or English.
The Great Depression helped to create wannabe Hitlers everywhere.
The living space argument centered on this idea of Hitler that the sub-human
agricultural nations feed Germany. But these nations were beginning to industrialize
and one day they wouldn't need to trade their food for German mechanization. And
German would starve. Germany also did not have oil.
Versailles could feed into this argument - but the argument was multi-faceted. As
most arguments are.

 

The Poles had a saying
"We shoot Russians out of duty. We shoot Germans for pleasure."
I don't think the Poles would like your argument.

 

It is clearly you who does not know how to read. Next time you weasel yourself into someone else's dialogue make sure you know what they are talking about before you open your mouth.

 

I like to know more about that. The general history (or is it spun propaganda?) has it that the U.S. was opposed for humanitarian reasons.

I assumed this was general knowledge. I guess I was wrong.

 

Yes. As I recall Germany surrendered to the USSR 2 or maybe 3 days before the "western" claim, making (in essence) the surrender to western allies a mock ceremony.

 

Is it your contention that Germany had no legitimate reason to give the west the finger and rise up with force?

 

Your the one who said, and I quote: 'revenge on Germany is to be regretted. But that revenge lead to the rise of Hitler. That's the generally well accepted chain of historic events.' i.e Versailles.

Ergo you blame Hitlers rise to power on the Treaty of Versailles (even though multiple people have pointed to multiple causes for this). I in turn pointed out that the chain of Russian autocrats that Putin is a part of started before WWI ended continued through to the start of WW11. So how come the Western powers and leaders of the time get blamed but Russia and it's leaders don't? After all nothing they did prevented his rise either. And that's without the German-Soviet Nonaggression Pact of 1939 albeit Stalin had tried previously to enter security pacts with the UK and France prior to signed that accord.

Where did I say he wasn't smart?That doesn't make him the answer the Russia's problems. And just because he's smart and successful doesn't make him right about this. Especially when saying it means he gets to pile one more thing on the list of 'crimes' he accuses the West of committing for domestic political consumption. The more he can blame on the West the less he has to be responsible for.

Read what I said i.e. that he was the 'bastard child of that revolution and the political system that arose from it. In other worlds a child of the Soviet Political System. Not a bastard in and of himself. Of course if you think that system is admirable go live there.

Regardless of its effects on Germany (and they were significant) the Great Depression devastated the economies and social systems of the Western Powers. International trade flat lined and so did international co-operation and military spending by the Great powers. The depression ensured France, Germany and the US had little appetite for military co-operation or intervention during Hitlers rise. Russia of course had its own problems but they didn't stop him either. And of Hitler played them all like a cheap violin.

My point is that no one thing lead to Hitlers rise. Insteadt here were multiple causes and drivers, including the German people themselves. Having Putin saying 'its the West fault' not only conveniently exculpates any blame Russia might have shared it also turns WW11 and everything that has happened since into some kind of bizarre conspiracy by the West against Russia. Which is just the sought of paranoid message Putin wants Russians to believe because it suits his political ends.

 

It's not an argument. It's a historic fact that the King of Prussia became the emperor of Germany. And Prussia was a German nation in what is now mostly Poland. We can all look it up.

 

You're just never minding why there was a contempt against who.
And most of these people you name played a roll in the Versailles treaty.

Doubt

That Lebensraum... is the Germans retaking their ancestral homeland of Prussia, which Versailles took away.

You mostly did already.
You seem to know very little of what Versailles did to Germans and Germany.

 

No, Germany had perhaps reason to feel unjustly treated by the outcome of the war (although I doubt the terms the Central Powers would have imposed on the West would have been any fairer given the 4 years of mass slaughter both sides had just engaged in). To the extent they had legitimate grievances those grievances could have and should have been with politically and economically.

As for 'rising up with force'? Definitely no. Repudiate the treaty? if necessary perhaps, rebuild its economy - definitely. Take its place as a major industrial power in Central Europe? - yes. In other words rise up to where it was before WW1 - all good. But taking out a mass desire for 'revenge' on the rest of Europe? Hell no.

 

It has to do with this guy and his opinion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cabot_Lodge#League_of_Nations

It's not general history, as far as I know.

 

So if it's a "fake".....provide the details of this fake.


"Thousands of thousands of miles".....could mean 10Gs or more?? RF isn't that big.....delusional post on your part.

What accomplishments??.....the collapse of the SU.....same as Warsaw Pact? If that's an accomplishment.....I'd be loath to see what a disaster would be.

Face it.....massive lend lease saved the SU.....without it, Muscovia was done.)

 

You seem to have comprehension issues. If there are no US signatures on the Treaty of Versailles, then the US bears no responsibility for its consequences. The US sued for peace with Germany two years later, and with no demands of payment from Germany. So it doesn’t matter what mental gymnastics you try to to hilariously pin fault on the US, fact remains that France and the U.K. bear full responsibility for the Treaty of Versailles.

 

You forgot the Slavs - which includes Russians. Twenty million died, mostly civilians as the Germans tried to push the Russians to the Urals. Many were Jews though. Hitler despised the League of Nations, for having people in it as inferior as the Czechs. Later on he conscripted the Czechs who the Nazis felt were pure 'Arians'.

Of course the US sat idly by at the start of WWII, it wasn't our war. Today it's different, we're the ones instigating the wars - but not only that, we're supporting the ones who commit genocide and to add insult to injury, we demonize the victims. Ah yes Hitler, you're alive and well in the United States. No wonder Lobaczewski called the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and the US 'pathocracies'.. A system of government created by a small pathological minority

As for Hitler, he wanted the Jews to leave Germany since he felt they were a fifth column. According to a book I read on the Palestinian Papers, in WWI British planes were dropping leaflets on the German army telling the Jews not to fight for Germany, and that Britain would give them Palestine. I don't know whose brilliant idea that was, but it certainly wasn't going to endear the Germans to the Jews if they lost the war.

According to Steven Ben-Nun of Israelinews live, who I respect immensely, during WWII Eichmann was negotiating with wealthy Jews, and they were willing to paid thousands for the lives of those they felt would be an asset to the future state of Israel - but not $1.50 to save the lives of the other Jews.

One Jew he mentioned said the Zionists needed a lot of martyrs to convince Europe to give them Palestine. The ones sacrificed by the way were the orthodox Jews. I also know the Sephardic Jews of Thessaloniki were all killed.

Read the last paragraph of your link.

"...In a 1997 article in the journal History & Memory, the German historian Hans Mommsen explains that Hitler’s insertion of a few paragraphs about the Jews came against the background of ongoing negotiations between the Third Reich and the Intergovernmental Committee on Refugees, on a plan for Jewish emigration from Germany. .."​

 

Well, I doubt that Germany could have done any of those righteous deeds you speak of without taking the bull by the horns. Anyway, I didn't say "revenge". The term was applied to this discussion by others in a manner of speaking, I believe.

It is your belief that Germany could have reinstated itself to where it was prior to WWI by political means but note that Hindenburg had his lips planted up the bum of the First World War victors and wasn't eager to make the slightest protest ..... as I understand it. Hitler wanted change and he wanted it "now", no *****-footing or begging for favours. It is not surprising that he rose so quickly. I can't fault Hitler or the population for supporting him. What he did down the road is another matter entirely but he correctly sussed out the western powers as being weak and I guess his successes went to his head which is typical of un-trained politicians, film celebrities, rock stars, and religious cult leaders.

 

Funny that Article X of the League of Nations was so detested yet the U.S. managed to incorporate it (to their favour) by creating NATO.

My mistake. I meant to say 'general knowledge.'

 

The estate owners of Prussia (Junkers) identified as Germans, but what about the peasants? Were they German or Polish?

As for Lebensraum, what Germany really wanted was the strain of rich black earth in the Russian inhabited parts of the Soviet Union, and to repopulate it with Germans - thus 'Operation Barbarossa'. To do this he had to start killing the inhabitants, mostly through famine and chase them to the Urals.

Other than that he needed and wanted the oil, and that ended with Stalingrad.

STALINGRAD MEMORIAL

 

Bismark had complete control of the King and he united the German states and imposed on them Prussia's militarism. He was also an influence on Wilhelm - who was very spoiled brat. But he had psychological issues because of his deformity I think.

Anyway Germany didn't start WWI intentionally since Kaisar Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas were 1st cousins and very close. What the German ambassador did was try to get Russia to back out of its support of Serbia by telling the Tsar that they would give their support to Austria. The problem was that that the Russian troops were already at the front ready to attack, and it was too late for Nicholas to call them back.

The German ambassador literally began crying thinking of the men that would die - and rightfully so. Everyday of the war, 20 thousand men were being killed - even though they weren't advancing an inch. Someone said that all the generals in that war should have been lined up and shot. I agree!

 

You were not at war with Germany, but your allie - UK was. How about that?

 

I talk exactly about the war that was on the territory of Soviet Union. For Soviet people it was a patriotic war - to free the territory from Nazis.

 

omg... lol
Just pick up your random history book for WWI. And it will all say that it started with the Serbs killing the heir to the thrown of the Austrian-Hungarian empire. It's up to you to look this general knowledge up. I'm not going to hold your hand for this.

Yeah. Go walk from Moscow where the Nazi's were at to half way Poland. And see how that feels.

The defeat of Nazi Germany by the USSR.

The world was done if Russia didn't roll back Nazi Germany on their own. They did by far most of the fighting.
Almost 3 million peeps died of them in POW camps. The US lost not even half a million in total. Says it all who did the effort.

 

I gave you the links to the book and also to the site in Internet. If you think it is the fantasies, then it is your problem.

 

You seem to have a case of not knowing what this is about.
This is about Putin accusing ... THE WEST... you're making this about specifically and only about the US.
While it still is that the US is a co-writer of the treaty of Versailles.
So there is that for the US specifically. Not as bad as the other western countries.
But that's not being innocent about what happened.

 

It has to do with the way US is managed. You got 2 parties. Laws and policies are installed depending on who is at the helm. And they are keen to roll back loads of them when the power shifts. So it's just a matter of time that when it's a close no, that it will be a yes in 8 years. It's just like Trump rolled back lots of things from Obama by Trump. And in some years when the GOP lose power, the Dems will over turn it all.

NP. But it's not that relevant in the end. The UN was created, and the US joined it.