Quantum mechanics is crazy stuff

Discussion in 'Science' started by Quasar44, Mar 2, 2020.

  1. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    While a grad student, or perhaps an undergrad, he and some classmates were debating about a significant question early in the space program: Can a man pee in zero gravity? We didn't know for sure. No one had ever been in zero G before.

    He said a man can pee in space. Urination depends on muscle contraction and not gravity. To prove his point he stood on his head and peed.
     
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  2. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    You should read QED - Quantum Electrodynamics, The Strange Theory of Light and Matter.

    He invented the subject.
    [​IMG]

    Richard P. Feynman, QED, The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, Penguin
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    You have it exactly backwards. Words are useless if you can't translate them into empirical data. Equations are what yield science - predictions and results. Words are just a less accurate, or at the least a less efficient language.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We have the equations, we just don't know exactly what they mean, or how to interpret them in a philosophically meaningful way.

    What this means is, we can predict and describe what will happen, we just don't know why it does that.
    We also don't know from the equations anything about the likelihood of the world that may exist which we can't see (i.e. multiverse theory, as just one example).
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While that's basically true, I have read some convincing "Theories of Everything".
    providing some reasonable explanation of the different forces in a more basic and unified way. These theories are of course more on the lines of conjecture and speculation, and have not really fallen into the field of mainstream accepted scientific theory.

    For example, the theory that views electrons as miniature black holes.
    Or the theory that connects electric charge and magnetism through relativity.
    Or the theory that views gravity as arising from momentary charge differential, that to some extent can operate as a collective.
    Or the theory that views the equality of energy to rest mass as arising from universal collective gravitational potential.
    The view of gluon color charge being analogous to three-phase frequency differential.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  6. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Any supposed theory that can’t be tested, replicated, and accounts for observation is useless.
    Thus far, the Theory of Relativity, is robust, highly tested, provides for prediction, and fits observation at the macro scale as has the Standard Model of Quantum Physics for understanding quantum mechanics. A TOE still eludes and would seem to suggest a deeper model is yet awaiting discovery/explanation. String Theory, Quantum Loop Theory, Quantum Geometric Theory all await credible testing, predictive verification, and observation confirmation. But, bit, by, bit... question by ever expanding questions, the quest for understanding continues... how I define fun.
     
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But theory is often the basis for future experiment. Some theories cannot be immediately tested, and one has to wait for technological advancements that allow investigation of the theory in the future.

    Also we have numerous accepted theories that have been derived from inference, which have never actually been tested. One example is the carbon cycle inside a star. That doesn't mean they are useless. Anything that allows us to understand the 'why', or how things work, is not useless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  8. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    If it can't be replicated or tested, it isn't a theory. That is a matter of definition. It must also make a unique prediction that can't be explained through any other known mechanism or process.
     
  9. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    That is because we don't have a complete theory of everything.

    You can't properly interpret anything if you don't have the complete picture. And philosophy can't replace physics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think you really know what you're talking about.

    Well, by your logic, we can't really properly interpret anything.

    You seemed to state that as if it somehow negated what I had stated.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  11. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    I suspect the most significant realization during the course of my career in physics lies in the resolution of the Maxwell's Demon paradox - information can be equated to energy, which can be equated to mass.

    [​IMG]

    https://physicsworld.com/a/information-converted-to-energy/
     
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  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's an interesting, but separate topic. If you want others to have a discussion about it, start a separate thread.
     
  13. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    No
     
  14. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    That isn’t necessarily true.
    Newton’s equations for gravity were useful, a provided for prediction for a long time (I.e., artillery ranging calculations, calculating falling object behavior, and much more) though Einstein’s surpassed Newton’s in the accuracy of describing the effects of gravity and fit both observation and provided even greater predictability, yet Newton’s equations are still used in planning space missions. Neither explain what gravity is, once how it behaves. Gravity is still one of the greatest mysteries in Science, but we have developed useful and practical technology around both Newton’s and Einstein’s equations despite not having the complete picture.
     
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  15. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    I didn't say they aren't useful. In fact that is the difference between physics and philosophy - in physics we ask what, not why. If we can make correct prediction then we don't need to know WHY it works. But what we know leaves us with more questions than answers.

    We are left with many different, sometimes competing models of the universe and no idea which one is right or even the best. For example, is the cat dead and alive, or dead or alive? That is fundamental to any interpretation. Until we can literally and finally answer that question, we sure as hell can't make sense of quantum mechanics.

    Do alternate universes exist, or do we simply measure effects of universes that could exist? Philosophically, that matters, don't you think? But in physics we don't care if alternate universes exist or not. We get the correct answers with the mathematical models used.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  16. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    The why is part of the search in physics. A ‘why’ narrative allows for conveying explanation. And often, there are a series of interconnected ‘whys’. Want to look behind the curtains of an observation, there is an investigation method call the 7 Whys... it is also a good technique for testing someone’s knowledge or claims. We still haven’t gotten to the bottom of the why’s of gravity yet; an undiscovered Graviton, an emergent force associated with combinations of the other known forces, some variation of the Higgs, or ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  17. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Physics is expressed as equations. Show me the "why" in any one of them.

    "Why" is philosophy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  18. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    There is a sometimes close relationship between philosophy and science.
    Watch Brian Green’s PBS special, Light Falls, describing how Einstein came to develop his theories and tell me you don’t see the ‘whys’.

    It’s an excellent special.... enjoy. One of his fundamental ‘whys’ in describing gravity with his equations is that mass warps SpaceTime in predictable way; and his predictions were proven correct by Eddington in 1919. In the case of special relativity, it describes why things fall, including light... thus the title of the PBS special.
    The scientific method is used to expand our understanding of why things are as they are.
    Just a side note, Einstein was supposed to have a well known sense of humor and the special conveys some of that. Many of Einstein’s thought experiments represent observation, followed by asking ‘why?’.

    By the way, at one time I had a license plate that I used to quip was the shortest way to describe Descartes’ Inquiry that lead to his Cartesian Skepticism methodology which many feel was the basis for the Scientific Method. It was
    ‘Y I’... takes some thought.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  19. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    saving to watch when have time. I read somewhere that Einstein first thought about relativity when as a schoolboy he was thinking about his reflection in a mirror
     
  20. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Started asking questions about a compass he was given.
     
  21. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Yeah, I'm a physicist. I know the story. ;)

    And you said it. It is philosophy, not physics. And I didn't say the philosophical interpretation isn't important. I said it isn't important to physics.

    And this started because I made the point that we can't solve unknown physics with philosophy. We need the physics first. The philosophical interpretations follow. Going the other way around isn't science, it is crackpottery. The Greeks proved long ago that we can't solve the mysteries of the universe with philosophy.

    We may ask why something happens. But all we can learn through physics is what happens. Asking "why" implies there is a reason, a motive, or a purpose. Those concepts don't exist in physics. We ask what in science, and later can discuss why in philosophical discussions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  22. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Consider what physics produces - equations and conservation laws.

    Energy is conserved. Why? Because it is. We don't know why. But we know energy is conserved in any physical process.

    E = MC^2. Why. We have no idea. It is what happens. We can derive it using the conservation laws. But we don't know why it's true. And if we did, it would just be another what.

    The rest mass of an electron is 9.11 x 10^-31 Kg. Why? We don't know. We just know what.

    The speed of light is constant for observers in any inertial reference frame. Why? We have no idea. But it's true. So Einstein may have asked why. But he answered with what.

    Basically physics provides two types of answers: What we measure. And what we calculate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We actually do have fairly adequate answers for that, but it is a little too complicated to get into here.
     
  24. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True you dont have to know the core essence of gravity in order to figure out its consistent effects on motion and mattet matter in order to do work.

    The same paradigm is present in quantum physics .

    There seems to be a glass wall that newtonian and quantum physics runs into that the mind cannot get past. Then philosophy takes over

    Progress happens when the glass gets shattered . Science advances. Unlike political ideology and religion.

    I love it!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think this is a disingenuous view, but it's not worth arguing over.
     

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