Question for all he pro-choice crowd

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by jmblt2000, May 31, 2018.

  1. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Because there is an inconsistency in biology. The pregnancy is not shared across the two parent's bodies. In some alternate universe with alternate biology where the male and female somehow merge their bodies together and share a pregnancy, both parents might get an equal say.

    But we don't live in that universe. The woman's body is the sole carrier of the pregnancy giving her sole power over it's outcome. If or when males can become pregnant, they too will have sole power over the outcome of their pregnancies.
     
    FoxHastings likes this.
  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    She decides on way or another....period. If I have to pay, it is a small price for individual rights to self.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree that the woman should have the sole power over the outcome of a pregnancy. If her decision to carry the pregnancy to term is unilateral - the woman should have the sold responsibility for the financial consequences of this action.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problem here is the law - law which violates the Rule of Law 1) one person is not to be responsible for the actions of another 2) equality under the law.

    I agree that the the woman - because it is her body and I believe in individual liberty - should have the sole power over the outcome of a pregnancy.

    If her decision to carry the pregnancy to term is unilateral - the woman should have the sold responsibility for the financial consequences of this action.
     
  5. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    I worry in situations like that, there is no incentive for the man to be cautious about birth control. If a woman gets pregnant, she either has to abort or carry to term, she cannot walk away unaffected like a man can. But at the same time, I do agree to some extent with your intent. There would definitely need to be a cutoff prior to which the man must make his intentions known(whether he wants to share responsibility with the mother or not) and it would need to occur before any of the arbitrary cutoffs for abortion that some states have enacted.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not share your worry. Either the dude is wearing a condom or he is not. If a woman is not on the pill and she has unprotected sex - how is an accidental pregnancy not on her - at least in part. Even so - I agree that the man should be responsible for the paying for (at least part) of the cost of an abortion - and if he does not do so he should be responsible for the financial consequences of the pregnancy being carried to term.

    The problem is when you have a couple that has sex - even taking precautions - with no intention of procreating - having an unintended pregnancy and one party unilaterally decides to change their the game - change their mind.

    For me this is about maintaining the principles of Justice - the Rule of Law - and the bad precedent created. Who does not agree that one person should not be responsible for the actions of another - that children should not be killed for the sins of the parents and so on.

    This principle goes back to biblical times and Hammurabi's law code. Then there is equality under the law.

    The man should not be punished for financial consequences of the unilateral decision of another (to carry an accidental pregnancy to term in this case). The woman has the ability to avoid these financial consequences should she choose. No one can force her to be responsible for the financial consequences of some unilateral decision that she had no part in.

    Belief in the Rule of Law and equality under the law is not belief in equal justice - only for things one agrees with. Everyone believes in that. If one does not believe in justice for all then one really does not believe in justice.
     
  7. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    Interesting topic.

    Legally, as a male, I would much prefer the option to opt out of child support if I do not want the child. But in doing so I will also lose visitation rights and any other rights pertaining to the child. That IMO is a fair trade for not paying child support.

    However, should I opt out of child support? I would much rather choose the child support over forcing the woman to have an abortion, as the abortion could have health implications for her and could end up making it impossible for her to have kids in the future.
     
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, abortions do not stop women from having children in the future...who told you that??!!!

    Guess what? PREGNANCY ALWAYS causes "health implications" and more deaths than abortions and could cause sterility.
     
  9. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    Do you know the potential implications of what an abortion may have on a woman as opposed to if she were to simply give birth the normal way? It's not a fool-proof and 100% safe way of taking care of an unwanted fetus. Those potential implications after having an abortion could lead to the woman becoming sterile. Wait, don't tell me you didn't know that?

    Then we have mortality rates:
    http://afterabortion.org/2012/higher-death-rates-after-abortion-found-in-u-s-finland-and-denmark/

    A normal uninterrupted pregnancy have a much better chance for both lives to come out without any problems as opposed to the woman going through an abortion.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, your link leads to an anti-abortion/Anti-Choice site...it's no good.




    Here is what pregnancy entails:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.








    And women still have the right to choose this even if it may even lead to death....and they have the right to choose abortion even if it may lead to death...
     

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