Question For John Atheist: Don't You Want To Remember Your Good Deeds Forever?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Contrast the New Testament with Pascal's Wager , , ,

    Pascal's Wager is based on the "risk/reward approach" to
    living "as if" there was a God even though you do not have
    Faith that God does actually exist.

    In contrast to the New Testament's clear and bold proclamation
    that God is working on the principle of "Acceptable Losses."
    What is "Acceptable losses"?
    The New Testament clearly and boldly teaches that
    there are only 2 categories of human beings:
    John 3:16
    {1} those who believe and get Eternal Life
    {2} those that refuse to believe and perish and do
    NOT have Eternal Life {the "Acceptable Losses"}

    _____________

    Interesting Christian article against Pascal's Wager , , ,

    "In conclusion, Pascal’s Wager, while an interesting piece
    of philosophical thought, should have no place in a
    Christian’s evangelistic and apologetic repertoire."
    {the article explains, in detail, why it should not}

    _______

    The Wager , ,

    "The gist of the Wager is that, according to Pascal, one cannot come
    to the knowledge of God’s existence through reason alone, so the
    wise thing to do is to live your life as if God does exist because
    such a life has everything to gain and nothing to lose. If we live as
    though God exists, and He does indeed exist, we have gained
    heaven. If He doesn’t exist, we have lost nothing.

    If, on the other hand, we live as though God does not exist and
    He really does exist, we have gained hell and punishment and
    have lost heaven and bliss. If one weighs the options, clearly the
    rational choice to live as if God exists is the better of the possible
    choices. Pascal even suggested that some may not, at the time,
    have the ability to believe in God. In such a case, one should live
    as if he had faith anyway. Perhaps living as if one had faith may
    lead one to actually come to faith."
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Pascals-wager.html

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  2. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Pascals wager is fundamentally flawed in the context you are using it, is says nothing about supporting the wrong god it is a false dichotomy!
    Another example of the logical fallacies fundamentalist Christians use!
     
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  3. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    If you wanted to, you could look at that as a very interesting
    reality and you could find it fascinating and intriguing and
    you could say that is an indication that God treats us as
    individuals and not as a herd of cattle that marches in
    lock-step.
    Christendom has 2.4 billion human beings within her, and
    they are all individuals "on a journey" of learning --- look
    at it that way. Perspective. Improve your Perspective.
    Make your Perspective to be Christianity-friendly. Can
    you do that?
    Add this: The vast majority of Christendom agrees on
    the major doctrines regarding the Person and Work of
    the Lord Jesus with regard to Salvation --- eg. His
    Death and Resurrection. They believe in the truth of
    John 3:16 Christendom's most famous Bible verse.

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  4. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Quoted for context.

    JAG Wrote:
    "Swensson,
    Say do you ever give any serious thought to the possibility
    that you could be wrong about your Secular Humanism?"

    Wrong in the sense that your commitment to Secular Humanism
    can be the cause of you losing your eternal soul. "What shall it
    profit a man if he gain the whole world, yet lose his own soul'?
    __The Lord Jesus

    Not unclear to me what the truth is.
    Not unclear to Christendom.
    Maybe unclear to you.
    Maybe unclear to Secular Humanists.
    Not unclear to Islam.
    You have to deal with the world as it is.
    Islam is out to make converts.
    Islam is out to convert the entire world to Islam.
    No to coexist.
    Christendom {and Islam too} are evangelistic Faiths whose very
    purpose of existing to make converts and to change the
    world. One of Christendom's goals is to eradicate Secular
    Humanism off the planet through peaceful evangelism.
    "Go into all the world and make disciples of all the nations"
    said the Lord Jesus in His Great Commission to His Christian
    Church/ Does that sound like "coexistence" to you?
    Unpersuasive to you maybe.
    Unpersuasive to your fellow Secular Humanists, maybe.
    But NOT unpersuasive to me.
    Not unpersuasive to Christendom.
    Not unpersuasive to Theism's some 5 billion --- to hit 5.7
    billion by 2050.

    You can see that there is not ever going to be any peace
    between Secular Humanists and Christendom and no peace
    between Secular Humanism and worldwide Theism either.
    Both Christendom and Islam have every intention of converting
    the entire world to their religion. You talk about "coexist" -- they
    talk about evangelism and making converts and they are doing
    that too. You can drag out "Pew Research" all you want ---
    and the "polling stats" ---- but Islam is a fast growing Faith.

    And so is Christendom in the Global South and in China and in
    Africa and in South Korea and in South America and in
    Central America. Then there are the Hindus and some of the
    other Faiths that are not Theists, but they most certainly are
    NOT Secular Humanists. The Hindus fight religious wars all the
    time in their countries. They are not peace loving and they do not
    want to "coexist."

    This below is one of THE major doctrines of Christendom.
    Do you see any "coexist" in this below?

    "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where
    Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped
    him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said,
    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
    them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the
    Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have
    commanded you
    . And surely I am with you always, to the
    very end of the age.”___Matthew chapter 28

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  5. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    it's said that to make Heaven a good place, God would have to erase people memories of loved ones that God sent to hell, cause how could one be happy if they knew their God was doing evil things to their loved ones while they were in paradise?

    that is called brainwashing... do you want to keep your memories?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  6. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who on earth do you think you are. Most of us, and I guess Swensson as well, knows the real New Testament better than you. You accept everything as 'gospel truth' when a lot of it is simply your/christian interpretation. Most of what the preacher preached was OT Teachings which were moderated for his hearers - the Jews. Most of the events that supposedly occurred to him (baptism, yemtation etc were all in line with Judaism, Nothing new there. Most of the Beatitudes can be found in the OT. Many of his parables are adapted from Jahweh's dealings with Israel. Nothing new there. Everything else is added by mostly unknown writers with a bias to wanting Jesus to be the Messiah. Pauls 'vision' is no less remarkable than Mohammeds 'visions' or, for that matter, modern religious visions. If you accept Pauls then who's to say the rest aren't true. Study Palestine and the conditions, etc of the time. It will help you understand the real NT.
     
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  7. Cosmo

    Cosmo Well-Known Member

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    October,17 2019
    In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace
    The religious landscape of the United States continues to change at a rapid clip. In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.
    https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/
     
  8. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Some Possibilities , , ,
    Maybe God does erase all unpleasant memories. There
    are no theological problems with Him doing exactly that.
    This solves the problem you presented.

    Regarding your so-called "loved ones":
    My view is that there may be no people in Hell that
    actually "loved anybody" or were actually "loved by
    anybody" with a genuine lasting love that was truly
    love -- because Hell is not for "loving" or "loved"
    kinds of people.

    My view is that Hell is the place of Final Separation
    where people are put who have locked-down on their
    Sin and their Unbelief and have demanded their eternal
    freedom from the God that created them -- these type
    people are not the kinds of people who "love" or who
    "are loved" by others --- not with a true and genuine
    love -- and certainly not with a lasting love.

    In other words its not possible for good people to truly
    love devils. And Hell is only for devils. The devils of
    course do not think of themselves as devils -- but they
    are devils. So the real question is this: Can people
    in Heaven truly love devils? My view is No, they cannot
    and will not love devils.

    "Oh, But I'm Not Really a Devil" , , ,
    There are no guilty people in Federal Prisons either.
    They're all innocent by one excuse or another , , ,
    Likewise , , ,
    Hell will be populated with "innocent" people.
    Hell will be populated with "misunderstood" people.
    Hell will be populated with people who accuse God
    of one thing or another and the bottom line will be "Its
    not my fault that i am here --its God's fault" , , ,
    "or its the fault of somebody else, other than me."
    More accurate to say those that demanded to be their
    own God, and wanted no fellowship with the God that
    created them --- sent themselves to Hell.
    By the way, where else could they be put?
    Certainly not put in Heaven, because they want no
    fellowship with God -- they want nothing to do with Him.
    God knows this.
    They know this.
    So there is no other place other than , , , ,
    That Place Of Final Separation From God --- Hell , , ,
    where could they be put. .
    Remember they do not love god.
    They want no part in God's will and His Plans for His Human Race Project.
    They would not be happy in Heaven anyway --- because God is there.
    And they don't like God.
    And they bad-mouth Him and His Son the Lord Jesus and they bad-mouth
    Christianity and the Bible --- so they would not like Heaven.
    The real brainwashing is the Doom, Gloom, and Defeatist messages put out by , ,
    ~ The Religion Of Atheism
    ~ The Religion Of Secular Humanism
    ~ Secularized Rationalism
    ~ Secularized Pseudo-intellectualism
    ~ The Religion Of Secularized Secular Humanist False-god-Science
    , , all of which preaches Doom and Defeatism for the Human Person
    who on their lights, at Death, have the same identical ultimate destiny-end
    as do Yard Weeds, House Plants, Mice, and Bugs, which is ceasing to
    exist Oblivion
    Yes.

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  9. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so you say you want to keep your memories, but say God probably wipes them before people go to heaven?

    lot of good people do not believe in Jesus
    lot of bad people do believe in Jesus

    why would good people not go to your heaven? why would God send them to Hell?

    if Jesus pretended to die for all our sins (you can't kill God's really), then any debt is already paid to his father, so he doesn't have to punish anyone
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I don't have any loved ones who are not Christians, so
    your "problem" is not a problem for me.
    You do not know they will die not believing in Jesus.
    You do not know what happens after death.
    Neither do I.
    You do not know that people who die in unbelief are
    actually "good people" -- if your say you do know -- then
    that's no more than what you say. You simply do not
    have the Omniscience to be able to judge human hearts.
    The Lord Jesus came to save those that were "bad people"
    and you do not know the "bad people" will stay bad people.
    Neither do you know what happens after Death.
    Neither do you know their "believe" is genuine Faith -- you're
    guessing and speculating.
    Only God knows human hearts and only God decides the
    outcome of these questions that you raise.
    You do not know that the "good people" will not go to Heaven.
    Some Christians believe in Universalism.
    The Bible does not teach it.
    My hope is that the vast majority of humans will be saved.
    ______

    Your "If Jesus pretended to die for our sins" makes no sense
    to me. Jesus did in fact die for our sins.
    I do not understand your "you can't kill God's really" ?
    The Lord Jesus was/is both God and Man and as a
    Man, He could be killed, and was killed, but He did not
    stay dead -- He rose from the dead three days later
    and now Lives forevermore. Easter.

    JAG


    ``
     
  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you sure none of your loved ones are not Christians, guess you will never know as if there is a heaven you will forget them when you die

    God's can't be killed, they can only pretend to die
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  12. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Neither do you. So stop condemning everyone. It's not for you to judge any man. It's not for you to threaten anyone.

    Some time ago you quoted me a website regarding Jesus in Nazareth or Egypt. I asked you why Joseph had to go 300 miles south through 'enemy territory' when he could have just gone about 20 miles north into Syria where Herod had no authority. You couldn't answer when I asked. . Neither could they when I asked them.. Simply because whoever wrote Matthew's gospel wanted to make Hosea 11:1 appear to come true. Well, to do that you have to discredit the Bible because Hosea simply, and unequivocably, refers to Israel. There in NO reference to Jesus in the OT.
     
  13. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Indeed you are guessing.
    I am sure. They are all Christians.
    How do you know I will forget them?
    It'd be impossible for you to know I will forget them.
    You're making Faith-based statements.
    Incorrect. Jesus did not pretend to die.
    {1} Jesus was God.
    {2} Jesus was killed {He died}
    {3} Jesus came back alive from the grave {The Resurrection. Easter}

    "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God."
    John 1:1

    "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance:
    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
    that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day
    according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to
    Cephas, {Peter} and then to the Twelve. After that,
    he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers
    and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still
    living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he
    appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and
    last of all he appeared to me {Paul} also, as to
    one abnormally born."___The Apostle Paul
    1 Cor. 15:3-8


    “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross,
    so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;
    by his wounds you have been healed"___1 Peter 2:24

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    well how could it be heaven if people knew their loved ones were being punished in hell by God

    if Jesus is a God, then he pretended to die as God's can not be killed.... but I agree, Jesus was not a God

    "“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross,
    so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;
    by his wounds you have been healed"___1 Peter 2:24"

    so then what are you worried about, he already paid his dad not to punish us

    and if you say Jesus is his father, then who did he pay not to hurt us, himself?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  15. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    "coexist"___Swensson
    No coexist.
    Theism has 2 aggressive evangelizing Faiths, Islam
    and Christianity.

    Theism worldwide is very strong and very healthy.
    2.8 billion Muslims plus 2.9 billion Christians by 2050.
    That comes out to 5.7 billion Theists by 2050 And that's not counting the Jews.
    5.7 billion Theists is going to be a lot of Theists by 2050

    Start quote.
    Projected Growth Of Christianity By 2050
    Some of the projections are as follows:
    [96]
    1. Over the 2010-2050 period, Christians will remain the largest religious group with 30.7% of the world’s population. However, Islam will grow faster and become 29.7% of the world’s population. Therefore, by 2050 there will be 2.8 billion Muslims compared to 2.9 billion Christians.
    2. “In the United States, Christians will decline from more than three-quarters of the population in 2010 to two-thirds in 2050.”
    3. “Four out of every 10 Christians in the world will live in sub-Saharan Africa.

    In the section By Country, here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...wth#By_country
    End quote.

    Christendom, according to the linked article, will decline in the United States by 2050 . . .
    _______

    However JAG Writes:
    Christendom is growing in the Global South.

    Christianity is growing in Africa.

    Christendom is growing in China. There is a huge "underground" Christianity in China.
    Christian House Church.

    Christianity is huge in South Korea --and growing.

    Christianity is huge-enormous in South America and in Central America.


    ________


    "coexist"___Swensson
    No coexist.
    Both Christianity and Islam are evangelizing Faiths out to
    convert the world.

    Christianity makes converts through peaceful evangelism.

    Neither Christianity or Islam has even a slight intention of
    making peace with the Religion Of Secular Humanism
    or with The Religion Of Atheism.

    The Lord Jesus, the Founder of Christianity, told His Christian
    Church to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations
    teaching them to obey His commands. This command His Christian
    Church will obey and will carry out to completion.

    The world's largest non-Theistic Religion, Hinduism, is not willing
    to coexist with the Religion Of Secular Humanism either.
    Hinduism has "1.25 billion followers, or 15–16% of the global population."

    Hinduism is a fighting faith

    "Religious violence in India includes acts of violence by followers of one
    religious group against followers and institutions of another religious
    group, often in the form of rioting. Religious violence in India has
    generally involved Hindus and Muslims"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

    _________

    By 2050 , ,
    Christianity will have 2.9 billion
    Islam will have 2.8 billion
    Hindus now have 1,25 billion
    , , , these 3 will not coexist with the Religion Of Secular Humanism.
    Those 3 together make up the vast majority of Humanity and they
    have no intention of coexisting with the Religion Of Secular Humanism.
    Prepare for continued Ideological War for all of the 21st century and most
    likely for the next several centuries yet to come.
    "Only the dead have seen an end to war."__Plato
    .


    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  16. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    It really is difficult to debate someone who does not even know what a theist is!
     
  17. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I do not know WHO you are agreeing with on that?
    You are NOT agreeing with ME on that because , , ,
    I did not say that.
    I said the very opposite of that.
    JAG Previously Wrote:
    {1} Jesus was God.
    {2} Jesus was killed {He died}
    {3} Jesus came back alive from the grave {The Resurrection. Easter}

    "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God."
    John 1:1

    JAG

    ``
     
  18. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Actually the vast majority of theists are quite happy to coexist with non theists and theists of a different flavour. It is only the religious fundamentalists who are so perverse that they want to impose their religious beliefs on others, often through violence since the cannot use logic and reason. The biggest threat to these fundamentalists is the apathy towards gods since gods are mostly irrelevant to modern lives. My own country is a good example of this with church attendance falling year on year and many places church congregations falling to less than 20.

    Christianity will not go down fighting against other theists it will go out quietly, on its knees with nobody caring.
     
  19. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Can you provide a copy of the death certificate and all the evidence that an intelligent person in the 21st century would require for such a silly claim?
     
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  20. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Religious history isn't exactly short on dying-and-reborn gods. I'd agree that the comparisons between, say, Horus and Jesus or Dionysus and Jesus are over-exaggerated, but that much can't be denied.
     
  21. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    By 2050 , ,
    Christianity will have 2.9 billion
    Islam will have 2.8 billion
    Hindus now have 1,25 billion
    , , , these 3 will not coexist with the Religion Of Secular Humanism.
    Those 3 together make up the vast majority of Humanity and they
    have no intention of coexisting with the Religion Of Secular Humanism.
    Prepare for continued Ideological War for all of the 21st century and most
    likely for the next several centuries yet to come.
    "Only the dead have seen an end to war."__Plato

    Wow. So now you can see the future. And the quote is only 'attributed' to Plato.
     
  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is an excellent question!

    I read many years ago that Skeptics, Agnostics and Atheists in Israel were the main supporters of Operation Moses and Operation Solomon that brought tens of thousands of Ethiopian Jews from Ethiopia to Israel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses

    Atheists tend to have some of the most astonishingly positive near death experience accounts. Some of them.... such as Mellen Thomas Benedict...... immediately think that the Being of Light that they see.... must be somewhat like some of their best professors from back in University ..... so they go right over to Him / Her and start asking questions...... and they get brilliant answers!!!

    https://www.near-death.com/philosophy/atheism-and-ndes.html

     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  23. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    So? That's a failure on their part, not on the part of secularism.

    Besides, as someone pointed out, plenty of religious people coexist just fine with people of other religions and world views.
     
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  24. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    That wouldn't mean that Secular Humanism was wrong. Secular Humanism doesn't claim to know stuff about what happens after we die, it claims to present a consistent framework given that it is unclear what the truth is, and at present, it is unclear to me what the truth is, so Secular Humanism provides a reasonable framework. The fact that Christianity or Mormonism or Nirvana, or any hitherto unknown religion might be true is not at odds with Secular Humanism (in that interpretation).

    You say there is no peace, and yet, that peace is largely prevalent right now. Many Christians believe that they should make believers of all nations, but are still fully capable of living and behaving reasonably in countries that are not Christian. I live in a mix of atheists, Christians and Muslims, and while I'm sure any would be happy to "convert" me, we still manage to coexist.

    And if Islam or Christianity fail to maintain that peace (as indeed they might), that'd at worst be a moral failing on their part.
     
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  25. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    This seems to be missing the point. I can consider Christians' individualism etc., but I don't let it get in the way of more straightforward truths, which in this case is that whatever path Christians use to get to beliefs are not reliable paths to truth.
     

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