Question For John Atheist: Don't You Want To Remember Your Good Deeds Forever?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    How is your version different from Pascal's wager? If you cannot provide a credible reason to actually believe that God exists, then do we humans have any other choice than the one Pascal offers?

    My objections against Pascal's wager (and similar arguments like the one you propose) is not the one brought up in your article, so your post here doesn't actually resolve my objections to your argument.
     
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Have you given the same amount of time and effort to the other religions on offer? It seems to me, the things you have provided here are not a reason to believe it is true.

    Does a text become more believable if it makes claims about eternal destiny? It seems to me the fact that the New Testament gives more extreme claims should make us even more suspicious of it. (Actually, I think Middle-Earth has an established afterlife, inspired by, but separate from, Catholicism).

    Of course I have read it, reading something does not make it true. You seem to have a consistent inability to put your finger on what makes something believable.
     
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  3. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Beaten to death? You didn't even try to answer the actual question I was asking. What kind of intellectual/moral/philosophical/theological/other lives could we possibly lead if we simply choose to disregard challenges we don't like?
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    This seems largely beside the point. I already have nine tabs worth of replies. But since it would be hypocritical of me to simply avoid answering, sure.

    I read a bit of the Middle Earth things, the Ring trilogy four times, Hobbit, Silmarillion (for some reason could not get myself through Unfinished Tales). I saw the first set of movies (and I've probably rewatched them every now and then, if someone else is watching or it happens to be on TV) but I gave up after one Hobbit film.

    As for opera, I'm a Wagnerite, I can't get over the Solti recordings, like the set with both Birgit Nilsson and Kirsten Flagstad. I also have a guilty pleasure in Gilbert and Sullivan.
     
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  5. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Maybe the trick is that I'm not at war with death. That's your perspective, not mine. Death might come too soon, and it may be sad that someone dies, but the fascination with death at the expense of the life that we live, that's your point, and does not apply to me. As I've mentioned before, on secularism, death is not the failure of life, it is merely one bookend of a successful life (or for that matter a failed one). You don't have to agree, of course, but unless your arguments take that perspective into account, you will have failed to address the ideas that challenge Christianity (from the secular side).

    You assertions of eternal life are of course vacuous unless you can back them up, and no rosy description of it will make anyone forget that.

    None of this of course means anything more to me than "When you die, your God won't be there because he doesn't exist" means to you. I appreciate that you don't believe that, but it baffles me that you seem to think that repeating the points does anything (other than possibly reinforcing my idea that you don't know how to assess the validity of a claim).
     
  6. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I mean, I'm not convinced, but for the sake of argument, what if I do?

    Would any such appeal be anything but a false comfort? You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16 is the appropriate tool.
     
  7. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Thoughts on remembering good deeds forever.

    We know that human memory is contained in the human brain. When the brain is damaged memory can be damaged or completely lost.

    Personality is contained in the human brain. When the brain is damaged personalities change. If the communication between the left and right brain are split a single personality can become two personalities.

    Consciousness is a function of brain activity. When a brain is damaged a loss of consciousness can occur.

    So when the brain dies and no longer exists or functions, exactly how will a persons memory/personality/.consciousness suddenly come back to life? Is God constantly backing up our brain to the cloud so to speak?

    If our brain is damaged and our personality changes when we die and are resurrected do we get the old personality or the new personality?

    If our brain is split in two and we develop two personalities while living, will we assume eternal life as two people?

    Just asking.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  8. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The "point" is to have a good time -- to have some fun here
    inside Thread World, and not to get bogged down forever
    in endless philosophical hair-splitting over issues that, in the
    long run, will not amount to a "hill of beans."

    Art and music is more interesting than endless "Lions & Bugs"

    By the way, on your Religion Of Secular Humanism, you
    have the same ultra-sad ultimate destiny-End as does a
    young healthy magnificent LION and a Cockroach which
    is ceasing-to-exist oblivion as in you becoming 0000000.

    Name it , , ,
    This is ultra sad. Why? Because you are a valuable person
    and it is ultra sad to think that you will very soon cease to
    exist. There is NOTHING good about you ceasing to exist.

    Name one thing good about you ceasing to exist.

    Just give me one good thing.

    Name it:
    {1} _________________

    ``
    You are not only a Man Of Faith {your Religion Of Secular
    Humanism} but you are a Man Of The Good Words too.
    By the way, "language {words} are the first weapons used
    in War."___selected

    You have an unusual understanding of the concept of hypocrisy.
    To not answer a post-question is not hypocritical unless you
    put forth the moral claim that you are the kind of moral man
    that has a moral rule that you always will answer questions
    put to you in posts --and then fail to do that -- while at the same
    time pretending that you ARE doing that. The main idea behind
    "hypocrisy" is the concept of false "pretense."

    hypocrisy - "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or
    beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

    Jesus' Word-Wars , , ,
    Hypocrisy was one of the Lord Jesus' main themes in the gospels
    as He waged Word-War against His enemies the Pharisees and the
    Teachers Of The Law who were highly religious but who were mere
    pretenders at being truly good people.

    Please Consider Modifying Your Understanding Of
    Hypocrisy , , ,

    Since in my view, you have an incorrect understanding of "hypocrisy"
    I am going to take a minute and present to you some verses from
    Matthew chapter 23 where the Lord Jesus "held forth" on hypocrisy.

    Note what I bolded red as it relates to hypocrisy.

    _______________________________________________________
    Start quote.
    "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of
    the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful
    to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they
    do not practice what they preach
    .

    They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s
    shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move
    them.

    “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries
    wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at
    banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be
    greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.


    Jesus' Woes Against The Pharisees And teachers Of The Law , , ,

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut
    the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not
    enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel
    over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded,
    you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are
    .

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
    You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have
    neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy
    and faithfulness
    . You should have practiced the latter, without
    neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat
    but swallow a camel.

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
    You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full
    of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside
    of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

    “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being
    condemned to hell?
    Therefore I am sending you prophets and
    sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify;
    others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town
    to town."___ from Matthew chapter 23
    ______________________________________________________

    Swensson, by the way, note that the Lord Jesus can be quite severe
    against His enemies. All of us would be wise to have the Lord Jesus
    as our Savior and NOT as our future Judge. Sometime take a minute
    and read Revelation chapter 19.

    Savior , , ,
    not
    Judge.

    Start quote.
    {Christ is called} Faithful and True. With justice he judges and
    wages war.
    His eyes are like blazing fire , , , He is dressed in a
    robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God , , , On his
    robe , , , he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD
    OF LORDS. __from Revelation chapter 19
    End quote

    Speaking of answering my questions:
    You failed to answer them all and selected certain ones.
    Does this mean that you are partially hypocritical?
    No, it does not.
    What does it mean?
    I don't know, but it has nothing to do with hypocrisy.

    Also thank you for answering the questions you did answer.
    And I will, in a minute, re-ask you the questions that you did not
    answer because I really do want to know the answers to those
    questions.
    Thank you for that response, what you said was interesting.

    Now for the questions you did not answer , , ,

    I will number them so you can have # titles for them for quick easy
    reply when/if you reply.

    Do you enjoy the talents & singing of , , , ,

    {1} Luciano Pavarotti {now in Heaven. Pavarotti was a Christian.}
    {2} Rolando Villazon
    {3} Anna Netrebko
    {4} Andrea Bocelli
    {5}.Sarah Brightman
    {6} The Vienna Philharmonic
    {7} Andre Reiu
    {8} Carmen Monarcha {one of Andre Reiu's singers}

    Best.


    JAG


    More later , , ,

    ``
     
  9. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool.:___Swensson

    And I never can do that.
    No human can do it.
    Only God can do that.
    The Third Person Of the Holy Trinity does that work.
    That would be the Holy Spirit.
    The Lord Jesus talked about this work.
    He called it "being born again."
    The theological term is being "regenerated."

    Being "regenerated" means that your spiritually dead human
    nature is "made alive" so you can now understand spiritual
    truths.
    Think about that for a minute.
    Here is the Bible verse on that , ,

    "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision
    of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us
    all our sins"___Colossians 2:13


    The reason you cannot positively respond to John 3:16 is because
    your Sinful Nature is dead to spiritual truths and all you can see is
    concepts based in Secular Humanism -- one of those concepts is
    you saying this:
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool.:___Swensson


    Why would you say that?
    Because you really do believe that I, JAG, need to provide Empirical
    Evidences that can be powerful enough to intellectually convince you
    of the existence of God and that John 3:16 is true.

    But no human being can ever do that.
    Doing THAT is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit.

    Listen to the Lord Jesus on being "born again" linked to
    John 3:16 --- Note the bolded red in that passage down there.

    Swensson, being "born again" is linked to "John 3:16"

    Swensson, I am going to "tie in" being "born again" with John 3:16.
    Both are presented together in the same chapter in John chapter 3
    and are only a few verses away from each other.

    Repeat , ,
    John 3:16 is linked to being "born again" . . .

    I think you Swensson would ask the same questions as did
    Nicodemus down there in that passage from John chapter 3

    Start quote.
    "Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a
    member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night
    and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come
    from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if
    God were not with him.”

    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of
    God unless they are born again.”

    “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked.
    “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb
    to be born!”

    Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom
    of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth
    to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit


    .You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.

    ’The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
    cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with
    everyone born of the Spirit.”


    “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

    “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand
    these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and
    we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept
    our testimony.

    I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how
    then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever
    gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son
    of Man.

    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of
    Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal
    life in him.”

    John 3:16 , , ,
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
    whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world,
    but to save the world through him.___John chapter 3
    End quote

    So?

    So its utterly impossible for me or any other human being to
    do what you ask , , which was , ,
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool.:___Swensson

    ________



    Compare this from John 3:5-7 , , ,

    ______________________________________________________
    John 3:5-7
    Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom
    of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth
    to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit

    You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
    ________________________________________________________

    , , , With this from John 3:16 , , ,


    ________________________________________________________
    John 3:16 , , ,
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
    whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    __________________________________________________________

    Swensson,
    Do you see the connection?
    Do you see the point?
    Do you at least understand that the New testament teaches that
    being "born again" is linked with John 3:16 ?
    You said:
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool.:___Swensson

    ________

    Step 1 for you being able to personally appropriate the Eternal Life
    offered to you in John 3:16, is to admit that you cannot appropriate
    it through Empiricism and that it must be appropriated though you
    being "born again", that is, "made alive" by the supernatural work
    of the Holy Spirit ---and this is appropriated by you praying from the
    heart sincerely a simple prayer such as this one , ,

    "Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
    forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the
    dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart
    and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior.
    In Your Name. Amen."
    __from Billy Graham Crusades

    If you pray that prayer and sincerely mean it --- prepare to be
    blessed far beyond your present expectations of possibility.

    Best.

    JAG


    More later , ,
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    ``
    Swensson, please add this short post to my post up there on
    being "born again" linked to John 3:16

    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    Start quote.
    ", , , What we have received is not the spirit of the world,
    but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand
    what God has freely given us.

    This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human
    wisdom
    but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining
    spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person
    without the Spirit does not accept the things that come
    from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness,
    and cannot understand them because they are discerned
    only through the Spirit
    .
    ____ 1 Corinthians 2: 10-15

    Note the particulars from 1 Corinthians 2: 10-15

    {1} We have not received the spirit that is from the world.
    {for example Secular Humanism}

    {2} But we have received the {Holy} Spirit who is from God.

    {3} The results is so that we can now understand what God
    has given us

    {4} These truths are NOT in words taught by human wisdom.
    {for example the concepts of Secular Humanism}
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    {5} These truths ARE in words taught by the {Holy} Spirit.
    {in for example the New testament}

    {6}The person without the {Holy} Spirit does not accept truths
    that come from the Holy Spirit.
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    {7} Rather he considers them foolishness.
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    {8} He also CANNOT understand them
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    {9} Because these truths are discerned ONLY through the
    Holy Spirit.
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    ________


    I am merely seeking to make the point clear that Secularism
    is not a possible path to Faith -- but will always end with some
    form of this , ,
    "You have yet to provide any reason to believe that John 3:16
    is the appropriate tool."___Swensson


    Best.

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  11. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Step 1 in getting on the reliable path to truth is for all of us
    to hand in our resignation as General Manager Of The Universe.
    That is a poetic way of saying we all have to come to the place
    where we hand in our resignation as God Almighty.
    Do humans want to be God Almighty?
    Yes they do.
    J.R.R. Tolkien knew it {Tolkien was a practicing Catholic}
    "Nine rings were given to the race of men who above all else
    desire power."___J.R.R. Tolkien
    Humans love Power.
    They crave it.
    They fight prolonged bloody wars to get it.
    Power over others.
    But especially do they love Power to be their own God.
    Compare Genesis.
    Regardless of how you interpret the Creation Story, one
    thing is clear, Eve lusted after the personal power to be
    like God.

    The Evil One said to Eve eat of the forbidden fruit and
    "you will be like God" in Genesis 3:5

    So Eve did exactly that and Adam did the same thing.
    Then we all, in principle, followed suit, and did the same
    thing the first time we chose to use our Free Will to
    choose to commit a sin. In so doing we were, in effect,
    saying, I will NOT obey the laws of God. I will do what
    I want to do, instead.

    Humanity craves to usurp the Authority that belongs
    ONLY to God Almighty --- if you understand this principle
    you will understand the core motivation that fuels your
    Secular Humanism -- which is a system of thought that
    allows you to function, de facto, as your own God. And
    you do, do this, There is no Supreme Being in your world
    that is Higher than Swensson. Swensson is, for all practical
    purposes, his own God. And you are on THAT path which is
    the practice of the Religion Of Secular Humanism.

    John 3:16 and the New Testament offers you an opportunity
    to get off that Secular Humanistic path that leads to ultimate
    cease-to-exist Oblivion and get on the path of Faith that leads
    to Eternal Life.

    "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my
    voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person,
    and they with me."___The Lord Jesus {Revelation 3:20}

    Best.

    JAG
     
  12. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    In the course of your posting you ask many questions. Here
    is a question that I have asked you a couple of times and you
    never gave me an answer that I recall reading.

    You are a valuable person.
    You are unique.
    There is not another facsimile copy of Swensson anywhere in
    the world -- no other copy of you -- you are "one of a kind" --
    you are therefore very valuable and as a very valuable person
    your false Religion Of Secular Humanism spits in your face.
    How so? Because it tells you that you are long term worthless.
    Not worthless NOW -- but at the end your Secular Humanism
    tells you that you are worthless and you end up as nothing.
    On your false Religion Of Secular Humanism you have the
    same ultimate destiny-End as does a LION and a Bug
    and a Cockroach which is ceasing-to-exist as in Oblivion
    as in Swensson becoming this 000000 , , ,

    There is nothing good about this , ,

    Name one thing good about you ceasing to exist.

    Just one thing good about it.

    Name it.
    {1} _________________


    Best.

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Name one thing that makes your life so important that death would deprive the world of your presence. The death of very few will have any real effect on this world. In a short time all your posts will be forgotten. In 50 years time will you be remembered?

    Here's a fact you can't dispute whatever you believe. Death is the final proven part of life.
     
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  14. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    testing testing testing
    Swensson, did you ever read my piece titled
    "Christian Suffering And The % Percent Ratio Of Time To Eternity" ?
    I may have an OP here on this -- I looked for it -- but could not
    bring it up.
    Anyway here is a piece I wrote and I would be greatly interested in
    reading your thoughts on it.

    Here tis , ,

    JAG Writes:

    The takeaway point of this article is that all human suffering for the Christian

    will eventually become such a small fraction of our Total Experience that it will be almost non-existent.

    ____________

    Announcement:

    I will tell you up-front this is going to be a tedious read.

    You will see why if you keep going. However if you are a Christian, it will make you happy.

    Especially if you are suffering.

    Or if someone you LOVE is a Christian who is suffering.

    Come on.

    You can do it.

    Don't quit reading till the end.

    _________

    Let us assume a worst case scenario.

    John Christian lived 100 years suffering severely every year he lived.

    He even hurt as a new born, was still hurting when he entered Kindergarten, and he hurt all the way through High School.

    John Christian never stopped hurting until the day he died.

    John Christian spent his entire life in severe pain and all his money on doctors trying to get rid of the pain.

    He never succeeded.

    When he turned 75 he quit trying and decided to "just live with it" on out to the end and he did exactly that and

    died at age 100, in severe pain, but trusting the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

    Note: I don't think the Lord has ever allowed such as this to occur for one of His children, but I

    need a "worst case scenario" here in order to make my point.

    John Christian, after living 100 years in severe pain dies and goes to Heaven to be with the Lord for all Eternity.

    ____________

    Here is where your patience is going to be severely tested.

    But you can do it.

    Past the test.

    Keep on reading slow and carefully to the end.

    _____________

    What is the percent ratio of 100 years to Eternity?

    After John Christian had been in Heaven for 200 years, you'd have this fraction:100 divided by 200 = 0.5

    After John Christian had been in Heaven for 500 years, you'd have this fraction:100 divided by 500 = 0.2

    After 10,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 10,000 = 0.01

    After 100,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 100,000 = 0.001

    After 1,000,000 years in Heaven you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 1,000,000 = 0.0001

    After 10,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 10,000,000 = 0.00001

    After 50,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 50,000,000 = 0.000002

    After John Christian had been in Heaven for 100,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 100,000,000 = 0.000001

    After 500,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 500,000,000 = 0.0000002

    Question: How many zeros would you have after John Christian had been in Heaven for 999 trillion years?

    Moreover, as Eternity rolled on, there would never come a time when you would not be adding more zeros?

    At some point the 100 years of severe suffering experienced by John Christian in this life would become, in his mind and in his

    total experience, a fraction so small as to be, for all practical purposes, totally and absolutely non-existent.

    And again, as Eternity rolls on, the zeros would never cease to be added to the 0.

    At some point in Eternity, you have 999 trillion to the power of 999 trillion . . zeros.

    And once you reached this point, you would not even have "got started good" in adding zeros to the 0.0

    God's Mercy and Grace: The mere passing of time in Eternity, will one day, for all practical purposes, reduce our earthly

    suffering, with regard to our total experience, in percent ratio, to a fraction so small that it will be, de facto, non-existent.

    Of course, all this is assuming that we have the "passing of years", in Eternity.

    Eternity may have a totally different concept of Time than we now experience so that we will not have to wait, say,

    999 trillion "years" for our earthly suffering to, de facto, vanish into oblivion.

    That might happen the moment we enter Eternity.

    But either way all our human suffering, will, in Eternity, vanish into percent-ratio-oblivion, and for all practical purposes, cease to exist.

    __________

    If you finished all that, you can be proud.

    I know it was a struggle.

    So what do you think about my article?

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  15. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have a vivid imagination.
     
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  16. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    JAG, I truly hope you find the help that you need.
     
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  17. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    So you believe for bad reasons (or no reasons at all)? You have no way of verifying that your belief isn't the same kind of mistake that you (would) accuse Muslims or Hindus or Secularists or Norse mythologists of.

    Fundamentally, my question is not how you would convince me, but how you were convinced, and more to the point if your way of being convinced actually is reliable in any way.

    Why would I ask that? I see no reason to believe that Jesus wasn't simply wrong about all of this.

    If you take leave of verifiable epistemology (of which logic and empiricism are important contributors), then you have no reason to believe that the results are true. The moment you take leave of that, any assertions like "Christianity is true" (as well as any significance you attach to Bible quotes etc.) becomes lies, mistakes or at best accidentally true.

    I would agree, so that makes faith at best useless and at worst misleading. And none of this deals with the fact that ideas (you think) you get from the Holy Ghost isn't simply wrong.
     
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  18. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    While that may be true, using it to cover up the fact that there are questions unanswered seems dishonest. There is a media section of the forum, and it's not here.

    I couldn't say. Maybe there is nothing good about, maybe there is. I'm willing to grant that there isn't for the sake of argument. Then what?

    This still gives no reason to believe that it is so. You could be wrong (and given the number of competing views in and out of existence, probably are).

    I consider it important to answer serious objections to one's opinions. For instance, I find it dishonest to avoid answering my question about whether it is hypocritical of you to demand that bugs are not left out when you yourself left out lions (when you can't point to an important distinction). In the case of the performers, I did not realise you were interested in my opinion of those particular performers, rather than of performers in general. You've now indicated that you're interested in my opinion on those particular performers, so I have answered that below.

    I've enjoyed music from Pavarotti, Netrebko, Bocelli, and the Vienna Philharmonic (I guess I have enjoyed music of Brightman's as well, but it's not normally where I would go). The others I haven't (knowingly) heard, and sometimes not heard of.
     
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  19. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't know that there is something good about it (although there might be). Doesn't make it not so though. Do you believe Santa is real?
     
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  20. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Nope. We know for sure that that can often lead to falsehood. So we know for sure that it is not reliable. That truth supersedes any truth you can try to argue for your God, by the nature of knowledge.

    Again nope. Your continuous failure to understand the secular view puts everything you say on ice.

    No, it offers what humans at some point thought, and which then was selected to be disseminated by people longing for power and money. You have yet to show any indication that you're not being duped (I reckon it's more likely that it is misunderstandings and accumulated error than outright lies, but your answer should be the same regardless).
     
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  21. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't see that it makes any interesting point that you haven't already made (and could have been made in one line). And it still doesn't avoid the fact that it may simply be wrong and you haven't given any reason to believe otherwise.
     
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  22. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is crucial to coming
    to faith in the Lord Jesus. I believe for good reasons but they
    are not reasons that can be verified with Empiricism. The Bible
    says that the gospel is the power of God that brings salvation
    to human beings and it says that faith comes by hearing the
    word of God.
    _________________

    " I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power
    of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes"
    ___Romans 1:16

    "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message
    is heard through the word about Christ"___Romans 10:17


    _______________


    The supernatural power is the Holy Spirit who exercises His
    supernatural power through the gospel message. There isn't
    anything else. If you reject that you are lost.

    That is incorrect. There are several ways to verify the truth
    of the Christian Faith but not before you become a Christian.

    It don't work that way. You become a Christian first --then you
    get the verification. You may say, No I will never accept that.

    If you say that and hold to it, then you're lost. You made the
    decision to demand that God Almighty change His plan to
    suit Swensson. In so doing you set yourself up as one who
    tells God Almighty what He must do in order to satisfy your
    demands.

    You need to understand the seriousness of what you are doing.

    God Almighty, your Creator, says to you to have faith in His
    word and in His Son that He sent to die on the Cross in your
    place -- your reply to the God that created you is No, I will not.

    Then you launch into your Religion Of Secular Humanism and
    into your "Logical" rebuttals to Faith like when you continually
    post stuff like this:

    "You have no way of verifying that your belief isn't the same
    kind of mistake that you (would) accuse Muslims or Hindus
    or Secularists or Norse mythologists of."___Swensson



    It was supernatural.
    You cannot understand it.
    God clearly says that you can NOT understand it.

    ________________

    "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things
    that come from the Spirit of God but considers them

    foolishness, and cannot understand them because
    they are discerned only through the Spirit."
    __ 1 Corinthians 2:14


    __________________

    The gospel is foolishness to you, it does not make sense and it
    will never make sense to you until you become willing to stop,
    de facto, telling the God that created you, how He MUST conform
    to YOU and YOUR expectations -- before you will believe.
    The end of your Secular Humanism is death -- eventual physical
    death followed by spiritual death. There is nothing good about
    any of that.
    On your Religion Of Secular Humanism, no not reliable in any
    way. The God that created you will allow you to "be your own
    god" if you insist on that and demand it.

    Exactly correct. You most certainly do not see any reasons
    that Jesus wasn't simply wrong. And you never will see any
    reasons as long as you remain in your present locked-down
    determined to "have it your way" to the end. He will allow
    you to do that --if you demand it.

    Stick with that if it makes you happy. If you are contented with
    that and want nothing else, then that is what your Free Will
    will choose. You Yourself will forever remain the Highest Being
    in your world --- but you will not like it as the ages roll on.

    Read these 2 Bible verses below and ask yourself, Would it not
    be in my long term best interest, to assume that I am one that
    has been "given" to the Lord Jesus? And would it not be in my
    best interest to pray to the Father and ask to be "drawn" to the
    Lord Jesus? , , , , ,

    _______________

    "All those the Father gives me will come to me"___The Lord Jesus
    John 6:37

    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
    them"__The Lord Jesus


    ______________

    , , , , and then to pray the sinner's prayer, "God be merciful to me
    a sinner and forgive my sins. I accept your Son the Lord Jesus as
    my Savior."


    Then you have your answer. Now you have to "live with it"
    and worst of all, you have to "die with it."

    You would be wise to pray fervently that they are not wrong,
    otherwise there is no hope for you to have Eternal Life.

    You can not imagine how utterly valuable these words are
    to your eternal soul -- "God so loved the world that He
    gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes on Him
    shall not perish, but have Eternal Life."

    Then this:

    "We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God
    . God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in
    him we might become the righteousness of God"
    2 Corinthians 5:20-21


    __________


    By the way, the name "Holy Ghost" is 1611 A.D. Old English.
    The word "ghost" was used for "spirit" back in 1611 when the
    King James Version was translated into 17th century English.

    JAG

    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
  23. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    If what you got, is what you want, then hang in there with
    what you got -- but know that Secular Humanism leads to
    the death and destruction of the human person and the soul.

    I understand the "secular view" very well. Here it is in
    a nutshell , , ,

    "I am my own god"

    You can dismiss the gospel message with "nope , ,nope"
    but it is the one and only hope you have to survive the
    onslaughts of Time & Disease.

    You need , , ,
    Hope
    not
    Nope.

    Back to secularism , , ,
    "You will be like God" said the "snake" to Eve in Genesis 3:5
    Humanity craves to usurp the Authority that belongs only
    to God Almighty --- if you understand this principle
    you will understand the core motivation that fuels
    Secular Humanism. The God of Secular Humanism is
    Human -- but the God that created you is not a human.

    _________

    "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance:
    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
    that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day
    according to the Scriptures."__1 Corinthians 15:3-4


    ____________


    You dismiss my very best gospel good news truths.
    as untrustworthy , , ,

    There are some 20 arguments on the web supporting
    the truth of Christianity. You continuously ask for
    arguments like that -- arguments based on what you
    call "evidences" ,,, as I recall you liked the Kalam
    Argument. That one convinced you of Agnosticism?
    As I recall you are an Agnostic and not an atheist?

    Why bother? , , , ,
    If I come across an argument that proves Christianity
    true at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 --- I will be sure
    to "run it by you" -- yet what good would that do,
    because if you eliminate Faith from Christianity, then
    you no longer have a Christianity to believe in.

    What you ask for ---will wreck Christianity.

    "without faith it is impossible to please God"

    "he that comes to God must believe that He exists
    and that He is a rewarder of them that earnestly
    seek Him"

    "for by grace are you saved through faith"

    "believe on on the lord Jesus and you will be saved"

    "God so loved the world that He gave His one and
    only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not
    perish, but have Eternal Life."


    JAG: I just found an argument that provers Christianity
    true at the certainty-level of , ,
    P1 All men are mortal
    P2 John is a man
    C Therefore John is mortal

    Swensson: What is that argument?

    JAG
    : Never mind, Christianity is no longer a Faith.

    Swensson: What?

    JAG: Christianity is now wrecked. Faith has been
    eliminated and dozens and dozens of Bible verses
    are no longer true. For example Jesus said
    "Have faith in God" but we no longer need to
    "Have faith in God" because we now have
    absolute certainty that Christian is the truth.
    Who needs faith? Nobody needs it anymore.

    ________


    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
  24. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Thank God everybody does not look at written pieces like
    that. If they did the World Of Writing would be destroyed.
    Yeah, but then the reader would not have had the opportunity
    to "feel the process" and "feel the emotion" of the cheerful
    positive process of arriving at the conclusion. Are you a happy
    man? Are you an unhappy intellectual? To much mind?
    Love is an emotion. Love God with all your heart, mind, and
    soul and Love your neighbor as you love yourself is what
    makes the world a beautiful place -- and not Secular Humanism
    and the False-god-Intellectualism.
    Haven't given any reasons that satisfied you.. But I can't help
    that. You are shall we say impossible to satisfy. You are
    locked down on your Religion Of Secularism and you are not
    going to move an inch towards Faith. Sad to be sure. At the
    End of that path lies spiritual death and ruin. And you have a
    good mind that wants to live for ever. Your mind does not want
    to cease-to-exist. John 3:16 is the solution to your Death Problem.

    And this could be the solution to daily needs , , ,
    "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation,
    by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your
    requests to God"___Philippians 4:6

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    No amount of logic or reason could convince JAG he's wrong because he didn't reason himself into his belief in the first place.Believe first. Then use confirmation bias to prove to yourself you are right, and ignore everything that goes against. Ignore people who don't believe as you do, and tell yourself they don't even exist. That's how its done.
     
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