Question for Minimum Wage supporters

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Oxymoron, Aug 29, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    My question is simple....do you have a particular number in mind, if you do what is this number based of? In other words is there a mathematical formula to calculate the appropriate minimum wage?
     
  2. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Min. wage should be based on regional CPI increases
     
  3. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Please if you could expand on that, and why it should be based on CPI increases....Also do you not imagine that when people get more money they would ummm spend more and thus increase the CPI...and thus increase the minimum wage...thus creating huge inflation and mitigating any benefit of the minimum wage????
     
  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    CPI is higher in big expensive cities, that's why min. wage could be regionally developed.

    rather than one-size fits all.

    requiring $15 an hour in NYC affects businesses very differently than in Oklahoma or Alaska
     
  5. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    You failed to explain why CPI is a good gauge by which to decide what the minimum wage is...you failed to answer how it would prevent out of control inflation.Also this would force many businesses to relocate.
     
  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    it may not be a good gauge of what the initial min wage should be, but its a good way of figuring out how much to increase it.
     
  7. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    So can you answer my initial question then, what should be the starting point? Also if you increase the minimum wage are you not also increasing the CPI?
     
  8. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,457
    Likes Received:
    14,675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    no, u are not
     
  9. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ok thank you for your enlightened commentary :roll:
     
  10. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    25,273
    Likes Received:
    1,633
    Trophy Points:
    113
    the average rent in new york is 3 to 10 thousand a month, so the minimum wage there should be 50 dollars an hour.

    that equals a salary of 8,000 a month, and when you take 25 percent federal tax, and 10 percent state tax, that equals 5,200 in liquid take home cash a month.

    so if 3,000 is taken out of 5,200 they are left with only 2000 a month for spending cash.

    when you add up the costs of organic groceries which are expensive, that is almost 1000 a month.

    then they need extra for going out for entertainment, and that makes up the last 1000 a month.

    this of course a living wage, we is bare minimum. we should also look for raising it to where they can save for emergency expenses like job loss, medical expenses, repairs, etc...
     
  11. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    82,348
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is not precise mathematical number. It reflects a balance between several factors, including the concepts that a working person should make at least a poverty level income, a higher MW encourages more people to work, and the concern that if the MW is too high it discourages demand for low end workers.

    For an analytical frame work, this chart compares the MW versus the federal poverty level for a family of three, reduced to an hourly wage (based on a 2000 hour work year), and show the percentage of the "poverty wage" met by the MW:

    Year - MW - Poverty wage - % MW/Pov. wage
    1959 1.00 1.16 86.1%
    1960 1.00 1.18 84.8%
    1961 1.15 1.19 96.5%
    1962 1.15 1.21 95.4%
    1963 1.25 1.22 102.4%
    1964 1.25 1.24 101.1%
    1965 1.25 1.26 99.4%
    1966 1.25 1.29 96.6%
    1967 1.40 1.33 105.2%
    1968 1.60 1.39 115.4%
    1969 1.60 1.46 109.4%
    1970 1.60 1.55 103.3%
    1971 1.60 1.61 99.1%
    1972 1.60 1.67 95.8%
    1973 1.60 1.77 90.2%
    1974 2.00 1.97 101.6%
    1975 2.10 2.15 97.8%
    1976 2.30 2.27 101.3%
    1977 2.30 2.42 95.2%
    1978 2.65 2.60 101.9%
    1979 2.90 2.89 100.3%
    1980 3.10 3.28 94.4%
    1981 3.35 3.63 92.4%
    1982 3.35 3.85 87.1%
    1983 3.35 3.97 84.4%
    1984 3.35 4.14 80.9%
    1985 3.35 4.29 78.2%
    1986 3.35 4.37 76.7%
    1987 3.35 4.53 74.0%
    1988 3.35 4.72 71.0%
    1989 3.35 4.94 67.8%
    1990 3.80 5.21 72.9%
    1991 4.25 5.43 78.3%
    1992 4.25 5.59 76.0%
    1993 4.25 5.76 73.8%
    1994 4.25 5.91 71.9%
    1995 4.25 6.08 69.9%
    1996 4.75 6.26 75.9%
    1997 5.15 6.40 80.5%
    1998 5.15 6.50 79.2%
    1999 5.15 6.64 77.5%
    2000 5.15 6.87 75.0%
    2001 5.15 7.06 72.9%
    2002 5.15 7.17 71.8%
    2003 5.15 7.34 70.2%
    2004 5.15 7.53 68.4%
    2005 5.15 7.79 66.1%
    2006 5.15 8.04 64.1%
    2007 5.15 8.27 62.3%
    2008 6.55 8.58 76.3%
    2009 7.25 8.55 84.8%
    2010 7.25 8.69 83.5%
    2011 7.25 8.96 80.9%
    2012 7.25 9.14 79.3%
    2013 7.25 9.28 78.2%
    2014 7.25 9.28 78.2%
    2015 7.25 9.43 76.9%

    As can be seen, the MW has, at times, been higher than the "poverty wage" but in more recent years has dropped to a lower percentage of that number.

    In my mind, and recognizing there is no precise figure, this framework provides a reasonable compromise benchmark for setting the minimum wage. Under this framework, the MW should be set to at least $9.43/hour. That puts a person working full time at around $19,000 a year. Some will say too high, some will say too low, the debate continues.
     
    raytri likes this.
  12. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    You are serious? I mean you support Hillary thus I have to assume your are serious.....Jesus Christ :omg:
     
  13. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yes exactly, and based on your own words the number you suggest is rather arbitrary. Again I ask how can you support a policy without an exact formula to back it up as being a positive to society as a whole? I agree in part that we need to protect workers from being taken advantage of my employers in certain circumstances, but don't you think there are less arbitrary ways to accomplish this?
     
  14. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    82,348
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I gave you an exact formula, based on data and a rational analysis for it.

    If we had to have an number for everything we do we wouldn't do most things.
     
  15. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well perhaps we shouldn't do the things that do not have a valid argument behind it. Taking a number out of the air by picking and choosing random metrics and not taking into account factors like inflation, companies capacity to pay, and the take into account benefit compared to cost ....what if the arbitrary number you use is to high for business to hire so instead of 3 workers they hire 2. That is why any policy that has such impact has to have real analysis behind it, taking into account all relevant factors to come up with a mathematical formula, other wise its throwing (*)(*)(*)(*) and seeing what sticks. What you are suggesting does not even think about unintended consequences, but by your tone you rather push your agenda then have a real conversation about really solving issues.
     
  16. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    82,348
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I didn't take arbitrary metrics out thin air. I used poverty numbers because one of the objects of the MW, IMO, is that a person working full time should have at least a poverty level existence. And poverty numbers are adjusted for inflation.

    As my chart demonstrated, the MW has most always been within about 25% of the poverty metric I used, and demand for low end wage is fairly inelastic, so there is no reason to expect the drastic cut in demand you suggest.

    My suggest has a rational, analytical approach.

    What's your number for the MW and the rational behind it.
     
  17. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yes I understand what you used, but you chose Poverty numbers arbitrarily as a baseline without providing a good reason for it. Does maintaining someone at poverty level really serve anyone? Perhaps the question should be how do we promote employers ability to pay more and hire more? Perhaps the question should be providing business with certain benefits for profit sharing... I mean there are so many ways we can make our economy stronger, our workers better compensated and our businesses more profitable. What I am getting at is perhaps we should look from both sides and do best for all involved in our economy. MW might be a tool, but it might also have unintended consequences. I am trying to see if anyone has a real economic formula to prove the benefit of MW and the proper rate. Something that does not take from Paul to give to John, but rather allows for optimal unemployment and, highest salaries, and most profit for companies. In architecture we have the golden ratio, perhaps instead of it being a race between the employer and employee to the bottom, it could be a mutually beneficial situation.
     
  18. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,488
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Instead of us sending money to other countries why don't they just implement a minimum wage? That would solve all their problems right?
     
  19. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here's the issue with a MINIMUM wage; whether workers earn $7.25/hour the current MW or $15.00/hour proposed MW...it will ALWAYS be a minimum wage!

    Those who function in the lowest/lower paying jobs will always be in the lowest/lower paying jobs until the INDIVIDUAL takes personal steps to achieve more in their lives.

    Those who earn minimum wage, or lower wages, today or in the future, will always be left wanting and will always require the same welfare benefits we have today.

    IMO there are lots of Americans who are fine working at minimum or lower wages; part time workers, kids, college kids, etc. Those who believe they are going to start a family and visit Dollywood every year, while earning minimum or lower wages are demanding more than is possible.

    What's so stupid is most Americans continue to demand more jobs yet the same Americans demand that those employers pay more and more for the labor with zero increase in the productivity...this is not going to work! And these same Americans continue to demand low consumer prices on food, etc. when higher and higher business costs guarantee higher and higher consumer prices.

    What is it that drives automation, or robotics, or outsourcing; higher business costs...like the cost of labor!
     
  20. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    13,614
    Likes Received:
    1,506
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I do not know what the magic calculation should be, but to me it makes sense to make it based upon region as the cost of living is significantly less in Boise Idaho as opposed to Seattle Washington.
     
  21. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I tend to agree, it would be really great if our elected leaders started looking at long term health of the economy, long term growth of the economy, and when we are talking about long term that means looking out for the companies and the workers. Perhaps instead of it being us versus them, we can realize that both management needs the employee, and the employee needs management. As a country we should reward success, and we should realize that the goverment is limited in trying to micro manage these relationships. What our goverment should try to do is incentivize profit sharing, incentivize long term growth over short term profit. Just some tangent thoughts
     
  22. GrayMatter

    GrayMatter Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Anyone who supports minimum wage simply does not know about modern economic theory. If you support a minimum wage you support price fixing and you necessarily do not think a market is an efficient distributor. It would be an ultra rare thing to replace the lessons of econ 101 with a few comments on a messageboard. Discussions between subscribers to free market theory and non free market believers will always result in an impasse.
     
  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If we're talking public companies, Americans demand the highest profits, the highest stock prices, because tens of millions of us are directly impacted by the health of the stock market...and all of us are indirectly effected by the health of the stock market. Conversely, and politically IMO, many of the same Americans want to burden business with higher taxes, and higher labor costs, etc. which ultimately reduces profits, which can drive down stock prices...and these higher costs can force more automation, robotics, outsourcing, etc. anything to lower costs and maintain profits. I don't personally like unions because it immediately creates an us versus them scenario, then we have idiot politicians who do the same driving a wedge between voters and industry. There are few corporations, and fewer sole-proprietership businesses who are on easy street regarding profits. Most companies remain very concerned about rising costs. IMO whenever we talk about forcing higher costs on business we are ignoring the short and long term risks that come with this...
     
  24. Ted

    Ted Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,132
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    and how can making it illegal to employ people who are not worth the minimim wage be good for employment?
     
  25. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    43,110
    Likes Received:
    459
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    One that competes favorably with the cost of social services, as a rational opportunity cost.

    Thus, if the cost of social services is fourteen dollars an hour, the minimum wage should be fifteen dollars an hour.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page