Question to pro-choicers: what traits does a fetus need to be considered a person?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by kazenatsu, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Will you admit that a fetus being dependent on the woman is a pretty similar situation to a baby stranded on a deserted island with only its mother there to be able to take care of it?
     
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  2. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    Do you people just love making moral equivalency fallacies, or is it just me? I see this from Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates, Left-wingers and Right-wingers alike.

    "You don't look upon a fetus as a person, so that means you will gas people". I am sorry, but this is outright insulting a statement, taking what I said and completely twist it to sound like I am an immoral potential murderer.

    A fetus is human but it is not a person, a person capable of living on its own, independent of his or her mother. As a fetus you are 100% dependent on the mother to provide sustenance through the funiculus umbilicalis, otherwise known as the umbilical cord or navel string. A baby that have been born does not need that.

    As for having a moral high ground: No one have it. Not you, I, Mormons, Muslims or anyone else.
     
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  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't feel like answering your questions ...you address my post , the one you quoted, first:
    FoxHastings said:
    Uh, duh, that's usually how it works in pregnancy...only one, though, is a person.

    Good GAWD!....A woman can live on her own without the fetus, a fetus cannot live on it's own without the woman....
    It's pretty DAMN BASIC science...""""""



    Did you understand it?
     
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  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    .

    :roflol::roll: Oh! And what does this little knife wrestling being look like? A little Ninja warrior :)

    :roflol::roflol::roflol:



    Because they are BORN persons with rights.



    No, the people who think they're god and rulers are the people who want to deny women the same rights they have.

    They are the people who think they decide who is moral and who isn't.

    They think they decide what is right and wrong for everyone else and usually ignore their own wrongs.

    Those are the sinfully pride filled people who PLAY GOD.
     
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  5. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Wrong!

    The LEGAL status of a PERSON occurs at BIRTH.

    Prior to birth a fetus has NO legal status whatsoever.
     
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  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What does your "god" say about fathers and daughters and their relationship....exactly what does he say can happen????
     
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  7. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Ironic since don't have a point!

    When a human life begins is debatable but until it becomes a PERSON at BIRTH it is irrelevant when that life begins.
     
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  8. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    A fetus is not a person.
     
  9. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So then by definition.....you and others believe a "fetus" (as you prefer to call it) is a parasite, while others including myself, view it as a gift to be nurtured. You do admit it is a human, however, a human parasite. What a contradictory term. As I stated earlier, there are thousands of human beings that are totally. 100% dependent on others to survive. So that gives us the right to end their life by whatever means? (Sorry, I understand how the "gas" remark was taken to be insulting). Guess what I'd like to say in the larger picture of things is that there is definitely a "trickle down effect" in a culture that begins to devalue life at one end or the other. We are seeing it. It seems as though you are justifying the elimination of human beings "just because" an individual, the woman, is in charge of their care. Not a nurse, a physician, or someone that works in a hospice facility. You must understand, this baby didn't "just happen"....there were choices made that brought it into being. That is where morality comes into play which I understand the liberal mentality likes to skip over that part whether it be contraception, abstaining or just the understanding we are humans with a purpose, not just animals on a breeding farm.

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong......you point out that " you people just love making moral equivalency fallacies, or is it just me? I see this from Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates, Left-wingers and Right-wingers alike." Apparently these are people other than yourself and you list every qualification of thought under the sun. So it seems you are implying you do hold some kind of moral high ground here to the exclusion of all others.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Scientifically speaking, yes, it is a parasite. The word parasite is not always an insult, it is a scientific word that means something that lives off the body of another.



    There is no reason it can't be both. But your opinion does NOT change the fact that a fetus lives off the woman it's in.


    No, they're not.



    But NOT by using the others physical body, not being attached physically as a fetus is attached physically to the woman it's in.

    Good GAWD, there is a big and OBVIOUS difference.



    EVERY generation from the first generation has seen how humans have devalued life....and it's asinine to think it didn't start until the 21 st century




    And YOU don't ! ??? Yes, you do.

    """ That is where morality comes into play which I understand the liberal mentality likes to skip over that part whether it be contraception, abstaining or just the understanding we are humans with a purpose, not just animals on a breeding farm."""""

    And it's the Anti-Choicers who want to make women nothing more than broodstock.

    Could you address post # 101...it's rather disturbing...
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I ask supporters of Abortion what traits a fetus needs to have to be considered a person, and they respond back "It needs to be BORN".
    That doesn't leave much room for debate...

    Maybe it's because pro-choicers DON'T want to logically examine it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    See, you're wrong right off the bat. There are "supporters of abortion", there ARE people who want women to have the same right to their bodies that YOU have to yours.


    Nope, it doesn't so quit debating that FACT.


    It has BEEN debated logically with facts and that is the answer, no one has rights until born.


    YOU have not presented anything logical especially your thread on panda bears...certainly no logic presented there :)
     
  13. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    A fetus is indeed defined as a parasite, living off of another living being, and is a human. Until the child is born it is scientifically defined as a parasite, being dependent on the mother through the umbilical cord. This is not a contradictory stance, as it is a scientific one.

    Yes, there are thousands of people who are 100% dependent on others to survive. They are however living, breathing people who not only have been born but also have rights, not to mention emotional bonds with the people around them. And no, it does not give anyone any right to end their lives as they have legal rights.

    Human life being devalued? Well, in some ways I agree, but not for the reasons you think, and they are not for this thread. If you're interested in knowing my stand point you can send me a DM if you want.

    As far as fetus goes, no, human life is not devalued. In a way, each life is becoming more valued as the upbringing of each child in terms of the household increases. After all, the better each life is taken care of the move "value" they have.

    A woman is in full charge of her own body. And as such, she should have the ability to reject a child if she so wishes.

    No. Liberals are more for choice in the matter. That includes when a woman should be able to have a child or several if or when she feels she is ready.

    And morality is subjective. It's not something you can objectively define, which both Liberals, Conservatives and Moderates fail to recognize.

    I am referring to everyone, really, as it's a general statement.

    Moral equivalency fallacies are like candy for people I've met, Liberals and Conservatives alike. No one have the moral high ground in such matters.
     
  14. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    If it was simple to decide what is a person or not then abortion wouldn't be such a challenging issue. One thing we do know is that the initial cell of a fetus is definitely not a person and is just a cell, while a baby right before delivery is a person. So personhood is something that gradually happens in between. Conservatives can argue that this happens very rapidly early in the first trimester while liberal might say that this only happens in the third trimester.
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, sorry, personhood happens at birth when the fetus is no longer dependent on the woman to sustain it's life. If it had personhood before that she'd have even more right to kill it.
     
  16. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Lets do a thought experiment. Imagine if you right now were unable to support yourself and had to be temporarily put back into your mom's womb. Would you then stop being a person?
     
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  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) Oh, please, is there some point in there that touches on reality ?
     
  18. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Its just a thought experiment. Obviously it is not reality., and its like a hypothetical math problem using logic. The point is that your personhood is innate and doesn't depend on where you are or who you are dependent on.
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does. If you are a fetus, part of the woman's body, then you cannot be a person in your own right.


    If you are then she STILL has every right to get rid of you...
     
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If someone with liver damage and was going to die, hooked themselves up to your blood supply and you were keeping them alive, should it be murder for you to disconnect them from your body, no one should be forced to be the host of another, now you could choose to share your body with someone, but should never be forced by the government to share your body as a host to someone else
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
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  21. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is why we are in conflict....you believe morality is subjective. So whose morals shall the culture abide in? Larry Flynt has a set of his own morals, NAMBLA has there set of morals, so you think everyone is an island to themselves? Sorry, I don't want to live by your morals or either of those I described. Moral Relativity is wishy washy and I don't want to live in your culture.
     
  22. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes she is and you deny the responsibility of which she is in charge of when she conceives another human life.
     
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    ... isn't it a good thing no one forces their morals on you?
     
  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    She is responsible for her own body...and YOU aren't.

    Women are not obligated to give birth.
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Could you address Post # 101 ?
     

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