Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Meta777, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  2. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well the winner should be the one that get's the most votes.

    Period, that is our system now.

    You want to modify the system so the winner doesn't need to get the most votes.

    That is wrong.
     
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Lol! No its not. Just read that exchange between wyly and Longshot.
    Although it is sort of beside the point...or beside my point at least...

    That being that if you want the majority to have the final say, then Plurality voting is not the way! ♪

    Also, consider that in a Ranked system, the winner is indeed the candidate who gets the most votes.
    We just tally those votes in such a way that votes cannot so easily be "wasted".

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In Instant Runoff for example, votes will be tallied...the candidate with the least number of votes will be eliminated, and people who voted for that eliminated candidate can have their vote move over to one of the others. Whoever has the most votes at the end is the winner. Its just like a regular runoff election, except with more cycles and less effort. Are you suggesting that all runoff elections are inherently unfair?

    Then let us take Ranked Pairs (or Condorcet methods in general). The idea here is that we're ranking candidates based on how many of the other candidates they would beat vote-wise in one-on-one match-ups (and how badly). The winner of this method is the candidate who beats out every other one one-on-one, so of course such a candidate needs to get more votes than everyone else for that to happen.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    By sticking with Plurality, all we are really doing essentially is limiting who voters can vote for. And yes...Plurality is the system we use now, not that that's much of an argument in its favor (appeal to tradition arguments rarely are) especially considering that what I'm saying is that we need to replace that flawed system. Are you suggesting that a flawed system should never be replaced with something less flawed??

    Once more, I want to direct you towards the vegetable vote...you know...
    ...the one in which Plurality voting would have led to Okra! of all things getting first place.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...rite-vegetables.530698/page-4#post-1068992191
    Here, I'll even post the results of that vote right here:
    Results (Ranked Pairs - Plurality - Instant Runoff):
    [​IMG]
    The first GreenPe = "Green Peas". Second = "Green Peppers".
    Highlighted top three contenders.
    [​IMG]
    Artichoke
    Asparagus
    Avocado
    BakedBeans
    Beans
    Broccoli
    BroccoliRabe
    BrusselSprouts
    Carrots
    Cauliflower
    Chard
    Corn
    Cucumbers
    Eggplant
    Escarole
    Garlic
    GreenBeans
    GreenPeas
    GreenPeppers
    Greens
    Lettuce
    LimaBeans
    Mushrooms
    Okra
    Olives
    Onions
    Peppers
    Potatoes
    RoastPumpkin
    ShitakeMushrooms
    SnowGreenPease
    Spinach
    SweetPotatoesYams
    Tomatoes
    Truffles
    ZucchiniSquash


    ...that's a lot of veggies!
    To start off in this method, options which no one ranked as their number one get eliminated immediately. Obviously, no votes are shifted at this point. We are then left with the following:
    Options which contribute to the tally are highlighted in dark green.
    Code:
    2 Avocado
    1 BakedBeans
    2 Broccoli
    1 BroccoliRab
    1 Corn
    1 Garlic
    1 GreenBeans
    2 GreenPeas
    1 Mushrooms
    2 Okra
    1 Potatoes
    1 ShitakeMushrooms
    
    [​IMG]

    We then eliminate the lowest scoring options (this time, options which only had 1 vote)
    Doing this causes several ballots to become essentially nullified, but those voters who ranked additional options after the eliminated ones still have an affect on the outcome, as their votes rather than disappearing simply move over to the next non-eliminated option in their ranking. In this case, Green Peas picks up 2 additional votes that way.
    Code:
    2 Avocado
    2 Broccoli
    4 GreenPeas
    2 Okra
    
    [​IMG]

    Lowest scoring options are once again eliminated and Green Peas picks up 1 more additional vote to make 5 total, though at this point the actual number doesn't matter anymore since Green Peas has already become the last man standing.
    Code:
    5 GreenPeas
    
    [​IMG]
    Now, looking at that, are you really going to sit there and tell me that Okra!.....OKRA!...deserves first place? Does it really deserve to be chosen over something like corn...despite the fact that all but 2 people didn't even bother to put it anywhere on their ballot???

    -Meta
     
  4. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    In the most recent presidential election, the winner did, in fact, get the most votes: 304 vs 227
     
  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    That depends entirely on what you consider a vote.

    -Meta
     
  6. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    A vote is a choice made by one participating in an election. The state appointed electors elect the president, and 304 of them voted for Trump vs. 227 of them who voted for Hillary. Trump received a majority of the votes.
     
  7. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    In order words, you don't count the votes of the people, i.e. 'the voters' as votes.
    Even though of course they 'participate' in elections just as much as the electors.
    Look, I've got no problem with the electoral college system, though I do think it a bit antiquated,
    but lets not kid ourselves here about what it is or about what a vote is.

    -Meta
     
  8. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    They're votes. They're just not votes to elect the president. Only the electors appointed by the several states elect the president.
     
  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Like I said, let's not kid ourselves.

    -Meta
     
  10. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Let's not.

    Only the state appointed electors choose the president.
     
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    And who chooses them?

    -Meta
     
  12. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    The state legislatures. The electors are appointed by the state legislatures.
     
  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    And what do they base their appointments off of?

    -Meta
     
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    That is a state decision.
     
  15. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    And how do they decide?

    -Meta
     
  16. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    They decide via state mechanisms.
     
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    What state mechanisms?
     
  18. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    State laws.
     
  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Heh! You really don't want to say it do you...that's OK, I'm not going to try and force you to.

    -Meta
     
  20. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    ok
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  22. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Electing the President is not a democratic process except at the state level. Each State decides who it will support then the States make the selection. Always been that way.
     
  23. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    By whatever manner the state legislature chooses.
     
  24. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    always been that way isn't justification for a lack of democracy...absolute dictatorships or royal rule were always the way it was until it was changed to something better...
     
    Meta777 likes this.
  25. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You have democracy in your state if your state legislature allows it for you. The STATES elect the President and VP. And the Constitution guaranties to the States that we will not be a democracy.
     

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