Ranked Vote: What To Do About The Long-Term Implications of Automation?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Meta777, Jun 1, 2018.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hopefully not in that order...
    We already have a bit of an excess of labor today.
    If that excess increases further...and employers are forced to lower prices,
    doesn't that mean that at some point they'll also be forced to cut wages further as well?
    Or even headcount in some cases?...Basically a vicious cycle really?...

    The way I see it, we may end up with some lower prices out of it, but we'd in all likelihood also end up with a lot of new folks with no incomes, or effectively no incomes. For them, lower prices wouldn't really matter.

    You mean the people who can afford Jaguars, Mercedes, or Jeeps today wont be able to afford them. They'll have to settle for Volkswagen or Kia. But what about those folks who can't afford Jaguars, Mercedes, or Jeeps as it is and are already settling?
    This sort of just sounds like a big race to the bottom to me.

    Obviously we can't stop change, nor should we try really. But that doesn't mean we can't do anything about it.
    What we do is to react and adapt to it. There are several options for how, just look at this vote!

    And speaking of this vote, given your views on the subject, what is your ranking of the options?

    -Meta
     
  2. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    You cannot beat Macro- and Micro-economics. That is the one defining law of economics.
     
  3. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    Another view of the New Deal is that it totally failed, and that only Adolf's and Tojo's wars in Europe and East Asia solved the Great Depression by (1) providing massive government demand for war materiel (note how this is spelled with an -el not with -al) and (2) by taking workers out of the demand pool (with death).
     
  4. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    Whenever there are too many workers and not enough work, they will suffer until they die.

    The Black Plague killed a lot of them in the 1300's.

    WW1 did the same in the early 1900's.

    Then there was the Spanish Flu right afterwards.

    WW2 did it again in the 1940's. You can thank Adolf and Tojo (who both committed suicide) for the great recovery from the Great Depression.
     
  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So you agree with me?
     
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  6. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    And what exactly are you basing that view on?

    Like I was saying before, its obvious that the massive spending on the war effort had a huge positive impact on the U.S. economy.
    But war itself is hardly an ideal solution to economic problems.

    -Meta
     
  7. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. And so then what is your vote as to the best course of resolution to that dilemma as it relates to this thread?
    Or are you still thinking about it?

    -Meta
     
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  8. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing that can be done.

    The laws of economics will always prevail.

    We are due for a big die-off as the USA transitions into a 3rd World country thanks to Reagan, GHW Bush, Dubya, and also BHO. Free trade killed the U.S. economy.

    Trump will not be able to resurrect it without a radical trade war.
     
  9. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    These are topics often discussed in college and grad school history classes.

    That's where.
     
  10. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    If you are saying there is a huge economic hurricane coming for the USA then yes, I agree.

    But I don't believe like you do that anything can be done to combat it.

    Trump the champion of trade warfare is too little too late.

    I admire his courage though in making an effort.
     
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh,...OK, I'll mark you down for
    Option O
    then. Also, I'll probably reply to this latter with a longer response in the discussion thread.

    -Meta
     
  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So one of your friend's from college told you that?
    What exactly was their argument supporting it?

    -Meta
     
  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So you think we ought to just allow this so-called 'mass die-off' to happen and give up on trying to prevent it?
    That seems a bit silly to me. We have a bunch of ideas here that might fix things. So why wouldn't we at least make the attempt?
    Why not pick a few of these ideas, implement them, and see where they go? I mean sure...there's always a possibility of failure, but if we refuse to even try, then failure becomes a certainty and all but guaranteed.

    -Meta
     
  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  15. MissingMayor

    MissingMayor Well-Known Member

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  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi MissingMayor, Did you still want to make an amendment to your vote?
     
  17. RBoyd

    RBoyd Well-Known Member

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    I'll go for D.

    We're coming to a point where technology will likely kill capitalism itself. As economic systems go it had a good run, from the fall of Feudal Serfdom till now.

    We should probably just restructure World society as a vast college and everyone just stay students with part time work study jobs for life.

    Nationwide Kegger in the Commons!
     
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  18. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Alright, I have you down for D. Thanks!
     
  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Like I was telling another poster in the discussion thread, I don't believe its impossible for Capitalism and Advanced Automation to coexist. Certainly, capitalism as we know it today would need to change a bit if we don't want the automation to lead to mass swaths of the population being converted into beggars, but it should be possible for minor changes to be made to our economic system in a way that solves the problem of things like automation-induced job loss while still maintaining our core capitalistic structure. I believe that something like the Four-Phased Approach would achieve this goal well (which is why I ranked it at the top of my vote). I agree with you though in that education will surly need to be a big part of whatever solution we ultimately decide to put in place.

    -Meta
     
  20. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    It is inevitable so we all have to learn to live with it.
     
  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I can put that down as a 'write-in' vote for you if you want.
    Sure you don't want to additionally rank any of the other options though?
     
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  23. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Results are in!

    [​IMG]

    And the winner is!....

    C. Employee-Owned Corporations / Mondragon Co-op Model!

    Lol, should have seen that one coming!
    Not too much else to say on this one. Option C took it across the board. The IR Results were essentially identical to Plurality this time around.

    Fewer votes overall when compared to past votes. Wondering if that's just because this one covered themes which were a bit more complex and perhaps more challenging to understand? As is pretty clear from the color-coded ballots, in the end, the top 3 contenders were basically all decided on by just 3 out of the 7 voters. Maybe this is an indication that more needs to be done to spread the word about the issue and or the potential solutions?

    I do want to also point out though that in the RP rankings, the option to initiate warfare comes out to be the very last option. Just as it ought to imo. It comes in below attempting to ban the automation, which itself comes in after just learning to live with the new realities or simply waiting things out. What does this mean... Its basically saying that warfare is only an option after all other options have been exhausted, and even then...its preferable to just do nothing if possible rather than go to war. There's a lesson in there somewhere...

    Results (Ranked Pairs - Plurality - Instant Runoff):
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    A. Four-Phased Approach
    B. Ban The Practice of Automation
    C. Employee-Owned Corporations / Mondragon Co-op Model
    D. Recognize Education and Healthcare as Basic Human Rights
    E. Education Reform, Subsidized Daycare, and Infrastructure Investment
    F. Immigration and Import Reform
    G. Invest in Training for the Jobs of the Future + Workweek Cap
    H. Make All Employees Holders of Company Stock
    I. Have Government Provide for All Basic Needs / UBI
    J. Bring Back Labor Unions
    K. Mentorship Programs
    L. Abolish Minimum Wage and Subsidize Low Skilled Labor + UBI
    M. Tax Incentives for Employers Per Person Hired at a Living Wage
    N. 15 Dollar Minimum Wage + Unconditional Unemployment Compensation
    O. Wait for Un/Under-employment to Increase Further Before Acting/Do Nothing (Status Quo Option)
    P. Commence Warfare


    "Write-in":

    Learn To Live With It

    Ranked Vote: Discussion Thread

    -Meta
     
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  25. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Recognize that just because a productive society is capable of producing an increasingly abundant number of wants, it is the responsibility of each individual to define their needs among them within the means they are capable of producing.

    I would be supportive of C only if it lacked any government monetary involvement or force.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018

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