Reality Of The True Believers

Discussion in 'Ethnic & Religious Conflicts' started by El Kabosh, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. Robert

    Robert Banned Donor

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    You still have stubbornly refused to read an excellent book on this topic penned by General Tommy Frank.

    He was there. HE talked to the Arabs. You make it seem they were anti invading Iraq. Franks book explains this.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/10/international/middleeast/10JORD.html

    This brings up Jordan but since it was prior to Franks use of Jordan, could not explain it the way Franks book did.

     
  2. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    Obama has his ideology and the world has it's reality. The two didn't fit and, despite the progress once made in Iraq, all is lost there now. BHO was a gift to Islamists everywhere and of course Hillary will continue on the same course.
     
  3. Robert

    Robert Banned Donor

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    I and I believe others have long noticed that you refuse to criticize Obama or Hillary.

    It is if their stupid acts get your hearty endorsement.

    And you leave the tracks to discuss ancient Iran history or history with Britain.

    You still can't grasp what Bush saw, a way to free over 50 million humans counting those of Afghanistan.

    Bush had a rapid action plan.

    First deal was take out Saddam. Second deal was to pick up the pieces using Garner then Bremer to try to stand up a caring government. Most of us have not forgot the purple fingers and the happy Iraqis as you have.

    And Obama has had going on 8 years to solve this. And he had the lessons from Bush. And still things are a huge mess.

    A mess you avoid confronting.
     
  4. Robert

    Robert Banned Donor

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    There has never been a president more favoring the Muslims than Barack Obama.

    One other strange thing. Democrats brag a lot that Obama sets records on kicking back those illegals from below the USA. Yet the Mexicans the media reports love this man.

    For what? Why does he get their love when he brags he keeps them out.

    Trump needs to make that part of his campaign.
     
  5. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    Many thousands of people have died as a direct consequence of Barrack Obama foreign policy, probably a record among all Presidents. If he is a Muslim, which many of his followers deny, his policies would probably not have changed. He has certainly helped to encourage Islamism either because he is inept, a fool or of the faith.
     
  6. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    Obama isn't as ignorant about Islam as most Americans.

    Bush negotiated and signed the SOFA.. Obama couldn't go back on that agreement... and Iraq was never free. Paul Bremer dismantled all Iraqi institutions.

    Bush brought an Iranian nobody (Maliki) in to run Iraq .. and coached him on governance via Skype. Maliki was a very partisan Shia.

    I knew this was going to be a disaster and that Iran would be ascendant in the aftermath.. That's why I resigned the Republican party in the Fall of 2002.

    Even today... Chasing ISIS out of Sirte in Libya has a new, terrible outcome.. ISIS will be heading to Italy pretending to be refugees.

    The only way to have controlled the Arab Spring and keep Mubarak and Gaddafi in power would have been to have a huge US occupation force in both Libya and Egypt.

    Do you see the difference? Bush chose to invade Iraq.. Obama tried to mitigate the damage in Egypt and Libya.
     
  7. Robert

    Robert Banned Donor

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    I am in awe how you carry water for Obama and Hillary.

    Flat astounded.

    If Obama is not better informed, he sure had plenty of chances to get informed since his roots are Muslim on his fathers side.

    When ISIS reared it's head, rather than saying it is JV, Obama had the chance then and there to get back to Iraq and Syria for that matter and get their heads on correct. To powder the butt of Obama yet get hostile at Bush won't cut it with me. I know too much about what all happened, no disrespect to your more local experience there in the ME.

    Matter of fact when it comes to the ME, I look forward to your expertise there.

    Why won't you read Paul Bremer's book? Why do people claim things not rooted in fact?

    You talk as if Bremer was able to tell all the tribes what to do. Bremer found out quick that the Tribes leaders did not want Bremer as a substitute for Saddam. You never mention the coalition of tribes put together nor their role in Bremers time in Iraq. They had plenty of claim to government over their own people.

    Things took place during Bremer that he did not like.

    Bush never brought in Maliki.

    How do you come up with dialogue such as that?

    Those who ran the show for Saddam appear to be best for Iraq if I read you properly. I don't get why you want people who ran the place into the ground to stay in charge?

    You putting the problems you claim belong on Bush on the entire party smacks of killing the herd because one cow had mad cow disease.

    When I quit Democrats, it only happened by a protracted study of them that took perhaps 2 years. I have no clue why you would truck with them.

    The last thing on my mind when i commenced my study was me leaving the Democrats. I expected to know more why I was one. I simply was gasping once the truth hit me.

    You refuse to post anything critical of Obama and if you criticized Hillary at all, I sure missed out on seeing you do it.

    Bush wanted massive change for Iraq and his goal was the change met the terms of the Iraqis. No nation is 100 percent in agreement but his goal was for the public will to be selected.

    Bush may have thought our constitution would be a good idea yet the Iraqis went to a parliament government.

    But at least it got them out of Saddam's clutches.
     
  8. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    Why would you or anyone expect that Bremer could control the Iraqis? Do you think the Iraqis cared what Bush wanted for Iraq? We killed too many Iraqi people.

    Bush was an arrogant fool. Saddam could have been managed with a carrot and stick approach.

    http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/no-obama-did-not-found-isil-mr-trump-was-gop

    The timetable for withdrawal was set by the Bush administration... for 2011.

    The US government determined that they could not put US troops in Iraq in the position of possibly being prosecuted by Iraqi courts for war crimes if they fought in the country without a Status of Forces Agreement.

    So Obama was not asked to stay in Iraq by the sovereign Iraqi government, and international law made it impossible for him to keep troops there in a war-fighting capacity without an extra territoriality provision. He simply abided by the agreement worked out by the Bush administration.

    In 2011 when the civil war broke out in Syria, the elements of the ‘Islamic State of Iraq’ that had evolved out of al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia went to fight in Syria. Obama had nothing to do with that development.

    There had been no al-Qaeda in Iraq before Bush invaded.

    Operatives flocked there to fight the US troops, and gathered under the rubric first of al-Tawhid of the Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

    But al-Zarqawi initially had bad relations with Usama Bin Laden. In order to fight the US presence, he made up and joined al-Qaeda and formed al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia. AFter he was killed by the US in 2006, the new, Iraqi leadership declared itself the Islamic State of Iraq and deepened their al-Qaeda affiliation.
     
  9. Robert

    Robert Banned Donor

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    Bremer's role was to assist those able to manage Iraq until the new elected government took over.

    I don't recall saying Bremer controlled all things. I know that Bremer would not have excluded the much larger group but for the control by the tribe chiefs. Speaking of the Baathist party people. Bremer thought that was too far too fast.

    You blame Iraq for you bailing out of the republican party but General Franks never invaded until March of 2003 yet you pulled out in the Fall of 2002. We were not clear at that time a war would happen. Bush hoped no war would commence.

    You know very well that during the invasion, the Iraqi soldiers used the locals as human shields. Sure our guys killed some of those. But they were not seeking civilian targets.

    I am flummoxed at how you give a pass to Obama over both Mubarak and Gadaffi. I simply do not get how you could flip flop so severely.

    Obama did not invade either but he sure made sure that Libya is a heck of a mess and even Egypt has problems that I am not sure what happens next there.

    We tried to manage Saddam. Clinton tried your approaches. Clinton even bombed him. I recall this in excellent detail since when Clinton was president I was daily arguing this with the Democrats all during the 90s. I recall their scathing comments about GW Bush and their claims he stole the election.

    Yes we all know of the Bush timetable. But ISIS was not gone one day and the next out in full force. Intelligence would know ISIS was getting ready to wage war.

    Do you think Obama is an arrogant fool? I mean the narcissist is clearly self abosrbed. I think Hillary is his twin in that respect.

    Bush was a leader. But that did not make him a fool. There is a vast difference in Bush vs Obama or Hillary.

    Bush has the full respect to this day of our military. The others do not.

    We have troops in Iraq right now. Are you saying they may get prosecuted by Iraq?

    Obama takes all credit for leaving Iraq. At least you give credit to Bush.

    I blame Obama for deciding on his own that Syria must have the elected leader deposed. Obama could have came home, tail between his legs and let events play out. But he got involved. Drew a red line. Barks at Assad all the time.

    Most realize Al Qaeda was not in Iraq ahead of the invasion by Bush. But there came a point when they did enter and created a civil war, a war you blame Bush for. Funny how that works. Bush gets no credit, Obama gets all the credit and none of the blame. Then you expect posters to vote for Hillary?
     
  10. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    Obama didn't start the conflict in Syria either..

    You don't seem to know very much about the ME. Regime change and forcing democracy doesn't work. Obama has NOT invaded Libya, Egypt or Syria.. nor is he deluded into thinking he can force democracy on them.

    Bill Clinton did a fine job of managing Saddam and did so without invading Iraq.
     
  11. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    In fact it was Islamists killing the Iraqi people, just as they are doing now. If "we" wanted to kill Iraqi people it would have been a very easy task.
    Bush introduced democracy to Iraq, made it stable, and got rid of a murderous tyrant. What more could anyone possibly expect?
    That was the expiration of the SOFA. Those always expire after a fixed unless renegotiated, which Obama never intended to do.
    That was an excuse used by Obama but would never have happened unless justified by the Administration. None of this is new to SOFAs and similar agreements.
    Obama ran on 'ending the war in Iraq' not enegotiating a SOFA. In fact he told Romney during a debate that he was not interested in a SOFA.
    US Forces were keeping Iraq stable and democratic and it gave the Coalition, if they chose, a foothold in the ME to prevent what we see there now, as well as the problems it has caused the Europeans and others.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKSb2ukQxvY
    That is also wrong but there was certainly an Al-Q as well as various other Islamist groups.
    Right. And why was that? They were ready to make their move anyway and had been preparing for many years. These groups were not there too defend Iraqi sovereignty.
    In fact it was a Coalition 'presence' and the Iraqi people were far better off with that presence.
     
  12. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    These people had a real chance at democracy and freedom with Saddam gone and Obama destroyed it. That's the reality. https://www.google.ca/search?q=iraq...ved=0ahUKEwjsufrN5MLOAhUH9GMKHePVC68Q_AUICCgD
     
  13. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Before they were called "ISIS", they were called "AQI" for "Al-Qaeda in Iraq". I should know. I was there. And they were in Iraq years before Obama became president.

    You hate Obama so much that you will blame him for something that Bush did years before Obama became the president.

    Truly amazing.
     
  14. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    I'm not countering the sins of radical Islam. I'm simply pointing out the causal chain of events that led to the emergence of ISIS.
     
  15. MAYTAG

    MAYTAG Active Member

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    So you're not inexplicably arguing against bigotry? That's a lie.

    Do the math. Do you think government people are stupid? You think they empowered ISIS by accident? Even when the same Democrats who warned against toppling Iraq in 03 for that very reason continued the exact same foreign policy that accomplished it? So, who are your enemies? Alleged bigots? Or the people trying to kill you and the government that empowers them? Wake up.
     
  16. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    In fact it was the same peole killing the Iraqii people thne as it is now. Why do you suppose the Americans had to protect the Iraqi people from voting? Who do you think wass threatening their lives? It'shard to say whether you genuinely do not know this or are trying to manipulate the truth and the history.
    There is no evidence to support either claim.
    There is a timetable set for ALL SOFAs, wherever US Troops are stationed, and they are renegotiated regularly.. Do you really still believe BHO? Here's what he had to say on the SOFA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DpBwmN66As
    More nonsense after the fact in order to make excuses. In fact SOFAs always contain agreements
    More nonsense. Iraq was 'stable' in 2011, as admitted by BHO and supported by statistics.
    You're creating history on the fly.
    That's also contrary to the facts. But in any case there were certainly Islamists there once BHO pulled the plug.
    By 'operatives' are you referring to the Islamists?
    And went on to murder and displace hundreds of thousands of people and to bring chaos to that part of the world and much of Europe as well. BHO left the the Islamists an open door.
     
  17. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    I understand that there were Islamists in Iraq and the area operating under different names but with similar objectives. Bush left Iraq "Stable" and BHO left Iraq "Unstable". Big difference.
     
  18. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well there have not been any soldiers left from the Civil War in the last 60 year. All the WW 1 guys are gone, and the WW 2 guys are mostly 90+ years old.

    So that leaves the Left's beloved Godless Communists from Korea and Vietnam, and sacred Muslims as the most relevant threats.

    And Christians have not fought each other their religion since the War of the Roses.

    I guess you think Islam should be the "religion of apologies?"
     
  19. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    I was there during the surge in 2007. It wasn't stable. AQ was still there. They just reduced the tempo of their operations in order to reassess the situation. There was no victory or stability.
     
  20. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Iraq was also "stable" under Saddam.

    The idea that the long standing sectarian, factionalized animosity, resentment and hatred were "stable" for a microsecond can be attributed to american partisanship is laughably ignorant of the political reality of the region.
     
  21. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Lots of adjectives and nothing substantive.
     
  22. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Banned Donor

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    You may be the only person who ever claimed Iraq was "stable" under Saddam Hussein but one world leader said, too great acclaim, that it was "stable" in 2011. https://www.google.ca/search?q=barr...firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=LWLKV6GdLuzc-AOkjoHgBw
     
  23. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course it was stable, just like most totalitarian regimes until war takes place.
    There wasn't a bomb going off every day in some marketplace or other, there wasn't any civil unrest and violence, the infrastructure (such as it was) was undamaged, and his totalitarian rule kept sectarian and ethnic tensions under control.
     
  24. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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  25. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    From an Iraqi Newspaper before 9/11

    Identifying the targets of 9/11. And after 9/11 from an Iraqi Newspaper

     

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