Redistribution of American Wealth

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by cirdellin, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    12,816
    Likes Received:
    11,218
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I'm not referring to employees living the life of Reilly...unless you meant employers.

    I have started and ran three businesses and I am well aware of the cost, time and energy involved in this type of venture. But I also understood that my businesses would have remained a dream if I did not have employees to carry out the vision. The better the company did financially, the better I and my empoyees did financially. And by using that as the basis for compensation, I had very little turn over.
     
  2. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    11,394
    Likes Received:
    3,008
    Trophy Points:
    113
    OK. But:
    How do you know it is a lie if you didn't read the thread? Are you just makin' $#!+ up?
    IME apologists for greed, privilege and injustice lie much more consistently. I suspect we may even see some examples in your post:
    That claim is transparently false.
    I'd like to see some evidence of who this Complex Shill Army is, and exactly what they said about CEO pay, when, and where. I'm predicting that they did not make the claim you say they made. I'd also like to see a source for the $400K figure, which seems like a lot given the number of small businesses in the USA.
    Actually, it's usually the S&P 500, or some such subset of the largest publicly listed companies.
    Maybe because the CEO pay of publicly traded corporations is a matter of public record?

    But OK, let's go with your numbers: 29M companies, with average CEO pay of $400K. That's just under $12T, or more than half of US GDP. So you are just makin' $#!+ up. Or as you yourself kindly expressed it:
    Moving right along:
    False. Only their principal residences are excluded. Other real estate almost always counted as wealth, whether residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural or recreational.
    Most personal effects do not trade in liquid markets, are difficult to value, and are worth very little in the aggregate compared to financial assets like company shares, debt instruments and real estate.
    Ahem. Speaking of trying to fool people, there are companies that specialize in liquidating the contents of entire houses for the purpose of settling estates, etc. It is a rare home whose contents are valued at more than ten thousand dollars, which is almost always a derisory fraction of the property value. Few people own vehicles that would sell for more than a similar amount.
    Again, I would like to see some evidence for this claim. AFAIK, people who object to extreme wealth disparity often observe that total wealth is increasing rapidly, but the increase is almost all going to those who are already the wealthiest.
    Are they included? Who, specifically, do you claim includes them? What is your evidence?
    Committed, apparently, by you...
    Or maybe they are just objectively correct, and you are objectively incorrect. Ever think of that?
     
  3. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    17,082
    Likes Received:
    6,711
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How do I know? Addressing and debunking hundreds of iterations of the Wealth Inequality Lie Narrative, or rather, having dealt with the issue on this forum prior... many times, as any search could easily reveal. But you can read and write, are at least bright enough to puzzle how to search threads and posts, and that this thread is not the first thread ever on this topic, so will conclude the above is just typical passive aggressive, nonresponsive LW Complex backwash one sees daily here, and will not bother with the rest. A quick scan of the post for suspect terms such as "I'd like to see some evidence..." tells me I'm, as usual, correct, and -exactly- who and what you are. You, and others like you, have a "sticks out like a sore thumb" habit here and elsewhere of demanding proof or evidence 1) when it is inappropriate, and 2) when "you and yours" posts are almost DEVOID of ANY reasonable evidence of your own. Isn't that level of hypocrisy amazing?

    I'll stick with prior posts as not meaningfully refuted because they have not been... other than the CEO pay data I have posted dozens of times to this forum, will make its own post, and that you will almost certainly ignore utterly once it is posted. I'm prescient like that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    roorooroo likes this.
  4. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    17,082
    Likes Received:
    6,711
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Have cited this many times on this forum, here we go again!

    https://chiefexecutive.net/new-study-finds-covid-fueling-double-digit-drop-in-2020-ceo-pay/

    https://compreport.chiefexecutive.net/

    The data, which the company/magazine sells to companies trying to decide what to pay CEOs, is based on surveys of active private companies that does not include dormant or the smallest companies.

    Regardless of any incoming nitpicking, wiggling, waffling, squirming, rationalizing, the -point- is that anyone claiming outrageous CEO compensation in the U.S. consisting of the UTTERLY MADE UP $XX millions of dollars that concentrates only on the largest public companies and excludes the bulk of U.S. private companies is forwarding a lie narrative. Don't be fooled by their near infinite propagandistic lies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  5. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,535
    Likes Received:
    8,149
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And as an employer, you made that choice. Many employers do the same, but not all. A lot depends on the initial investment, recovery time, and when a profit is realized. Of course, it depend on what one considers to be an acceptable profit for their initial investment, and ongoing value. 5% 10% ? What is the additional amount paid to the employee? On what basis?
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  6. PPark66

    PPark66 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    3,416
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Inequity goes together with Globalization, Mergers & Acquisitions (change in policy @ DOJ 1985), our campaign finance laws, corporate governance, the structure of our markets, et al.

    Each contributes to the inequity issue and the issue is certainly not envy but rather that the components are creating a poor outcome for the country.

    For instance, there’s nothing inherently wrong with the concept of globalization but the execution sucks wind and is contributing to our inequity.

    We’ve got “A” policy addressing A-Z issues. Yes, our problems our systemic.
    Oddly enough anyone that actually identifies the issues and proposes solutions we don’t support. We are our biggest problem.
     
  7. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    17,082
    Likes Received:
    6,711
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So... how to tell the difference between honest people and liars on the topic of lie narratives on wealth and income inequality? Simple.

    1. Honest people will tell you EXACTLY what they want, why, and HOW it benefits them personally, partially quantified and concrete, on the private sector side they will freely tell you... smaller, less powerful government, less taxes than the 30-50% they are paying at all levels in taxes. There it is, plain, direct, crystal clear.

    OTOH, I've never seen a single honest Complex denizen, but there could be one/some out there, and they'd say "I want you to be involuntarily taxed more so I and my family of government employees, grantees, contractors, public union members, welfare-dependents, media-dependents can be paid more." And again, there it is, plain, direct, crystal clear. HONESTY, CLARITY.

    Have you ever heard that from Complex denizens though? "I want more so -you- should pay more in taxes?" I haven't... ever, not -once- in years on this forum, not in 40+ years of adult life. Not once have I ever heard a gov-edu-union-contractor-grantee-trial lawyer-MSM Complex beneficiary EVER simply state an honest position of why I should pay more in taxes than I do and why it should be given to them.

    2. Instead, liars will mealy-mouth out near infinite, free-floating bogus resentment based charts, graphs, empty headed jabber... the equivalents of advertising... that YOU the taxpayer ALSO pay for involuntarily. They lie about ALL aspects of wealth and income in the U.S., you can't trust ANY of it, and it is near universally abstract, vague, jargon-laden, out of context and definitionally unsound.

    Why are they such transparent, obvious liars? Because a lion's share of the propaganda comes from 1) teacher's and other public unions crafted by and aimed at middling lower common denominators of U.S. citizens... it's not targeted at MENSA folks, and thank goodness for that. Were it half-intelligent, it would be far more effective. 2) Even Complex denizens, though they want everything their betters in the private sector work hard for... just with far less work, do not want to face the reality that their Complex "work" is almost universally -inferior- work, produces little in relation to the private sector, that they do not really believe themselves that they have earned more than the excess they are already given. No one wants to think of themselves as a thief, despite the reality that a vast majority of Complex denizens openly advocate thievery.

    SO they do what Complex Liars do invariably, they PROJECT, it's not they who are greedy thieves in wanting a government gun in your mouth to extract >40-50% from YOU in taxes at all levels, it's YOU who are greedy because... get ready... there's some billionaire somewhere. Yep, that's the "logic" of the Complex... again not the sharpest knives in the drawer, and thank goodness for that. Does it work on anyone? Apparently the choir, few better people of the private sector.

    Yes, even though they know full well (eh at least the ones smart enough to craft the propaganda, not necessarily the parrots) that confiscating the wealth from the wealthy billionaires won't amount to a drop in the bucket, that it's really about taking more from YOU, not for "the poor" but for THEM, the Complex, they STILL go straight to the "ten richest." They still go to the largest companies' CEOs. They constantly distort and project using fallacies that wouldn't fool a bright sixth grader... yet it placates their need to feel like "good people" when they aren't remotely good people.

    They aren't even honest in their thieving aspirations. They want the government to do the work of extracting YOUR (not Jeff Bezos') life and livelihood FROM YOU, not do it themselves. In this they are beneath even ticks, fleas, other verminous parasites, because even those vermin have to do their own work.

    3. Finally, to sum up, how do you truly and finally KNOW they are liars? Just ask them "OK, then, what is fair, I pay 45% of my LIFE in taxes at every level right now, HOW...MUCH... EXACTLY...IS... FAIR... FOR... ME... TO... PAY."

    And LOL at the waves of vague gibberish, projection, fallacies, waffling, hedging that results, NEVER a straight answer. This is how you KNOW they are liars.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    roorooroo likes this.
  8. God & Country

    God & Country Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    4,487
    Likes Received:
    2,837
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wish, I have grown grandchildren. I know who these people are. State your case.
     
  9. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It did better in two years under Trump than it did in 8 under Obama. If your intention is to be contentious for it’s own sake, I don’t have the patience to deal with you. I wish you the best!
     
  10. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think that it’s Germany almost alone holding onto the idealistic notion that mass immigration is a good idea. Here in the Netherlands people are getting pretty fed up.
     
    Giftedone likes this.
  11. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    She has been married to Paul Pelosi since 1963 and I posted a link to her wealth as well as 39 others in congress in this very thread. And if you wish to simply be rude rather than answer my questions, I will simply be moving on. Good luck to you.
     
  12. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually I agree with that. People who hire illegals need to be prosecuted but I was speaking of people on a path to citizenship.
     
  13. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I disagree that having the wealth of a nation is the same thing as having the power of a nation but you do so there is no sense arguing about it. And I don’t leave decisions of how much one should be taxed up to academics and politicians. I make up my own mind based upon my own intelligence and education. This is why I am asking people’s opinion based on their intelligence and education. Just saying the rich are too rich seems far too simplistic to me. We are not in Congress and the speaker is not calling us to order for a roll call vote. This is an opinion question.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Even many Germans are getting fed up - nationalistic fervor in many regions.
     
  15. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Because you were unclear
     
  16. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Employers will always look at the bottom line. If you owned a business would you want to pay the lowest overhead or not? Many employers are already on the edge.
     
    Collateral Damage likes this.
  17. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    11,335
    Likes Received:
    11,469
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    ~ Much of Africa also has some of the most corrupt government.
     
  18. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    56,570
    Likes Received:
    16,656
    Trophy Points:
    113
    1st Africa is a continent with dozens of nations upon it. It plays host as well to multitudinous ethnic groups, cultures and races and probably thousands languages, and where three different religious traditions clash daily. There is no simple solution, no easy solution that doesn't involve wholesale slaughter, and I would hope no one here thinks mass slaughter is an acceptable solution.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  19. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I suspect that it’s just a matter of time before Nigeria goes into full scale civil war creating a huge refugee crisis that will spill way out into Africa.
     
  20. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Research has found that once you have your basic needs met, the amount of happiness you get from new wealthy diminishes significantly. This is due to the hedonistic treadmill effect where you quickly get used to new pleasures. Once you go past $100,000 per year, you really aren't that much happier (except in California where $100,000 is very little). In terms of wealth, it probably takes only about 5 million invested to retire extremely comfortably. With 10 million, you can now earn $500,000 per year from just interest and a life of luxury. Wealthy people hoard money because they are on the extreme end of that hedonistic treadmill and need more and more expensive things to excite them. Some wealthy people are on the extreme end of this and hoard billions of dollars. They obviously have far more money than they ever need but have that urge to hoard. This is at a time when tens of millions can't even afford to live or pay for healthcare. Because of this, wealthy people can easily afford to pay a higher share of their incomes in taxes for services that benefit this country.
     
  21. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think it was Thoreau who said extraneous wealth can buy extraneities only and I agree. But I live a simple life and have created no businesses so I can’t speak for the entrepreneurs who did or how much motivation they need or their drive to continue growing things. And I don’t feel comfortable taking things from them via the machinery of the state. And I especially don’t feel comfortable accepting their money after being taken for my own wants.
     
    Sanskrit likes this.
  22. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The best way to live life is to get your basic needs met, do some but not too much hedonistic pleasurable stuff, and work on things that give you a sense of purpose and fulfillment. For entrepreneurs, that purpose is business and that is awesome. These people start businesses because they want lots of money and believe that money is the way to happiness and esteem by others. Problem is that when some of them eventually accomplish this and get that big house they always wanted, it gets boring and they just want more and more. Many of them will spend long hours at work away from their families and barely even use their riches. This is because what really made them happy was their work and working toward a goal.

    I'm not against someone hoarding money or having far more than he actually needs. But our government needs funds and taxes are a necessary part of life. When making our tax structure, its best that wealthier people pay a larger share because they will be almost exactly as happy without some of this money. But working class people will see a decline in their basic standard of living because of taxes and are less able to take care of their basic needs.
     
  23. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You're saying 401K matches are responsible for the humongous income gap in this country????
     
  24. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Again that’s why I favor a flat tax as it does make them pay more and probably more than they are paying now.
    I don’t feel comfortable about telling anyone what SHOULD make them happy.
     
  25. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    56,871
    Likes Received:
    22,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You say "income gap" like it is a bad thing. Explain why it is bad to have different income levels.
     

Share This Page