Religion is Silly Fairy Tales

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Bob0627, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I responded to what YOU posted. Are you saying that YOU went off topic?

    They were direct responses to what YOU said. Are you saying that YOU went off topic?

    It is not my fault that what you are asserting is wrong and in need of correction.

    You stopped providing counter arguments. That's why this conversation went downhill.

    I've been doing that this whole time. I've been correcting your mistakes this whole time.

    Feel free to ignore me if you wish; that's up to you. The report feature is meant for reporting forum rule violations. That feature is not to be abused simply because you don't like what the other person has to say about a topic.
     
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  2. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Although most religions are based on silly fairy tales there are many reported cases of Near Death Experiences (NDEs) which also sound like they could be fairy tales except for the fact that many of these accounts have multiple lines of similarity regardless of background and age. There is no ultimate authority on this subject but the phenomenon has been studied by some. Here is one study by Jeffrey Long, MD:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

    There are websites dedicated to the NDE, here is one that purports to be the "largest" in the world:

    https://www.nderf.org/

    Why bring NDEs into this discussion? Western religions, which are widely followed, all seem to link the god mysticism to some sort of afterlife. Indeed there are some reports of NDE experiences surrounding the Jesus story. The following website analyzes NDEs reported by atheists:

    https://near-death.com/an-analysis-of-the-ndes-of-atheists/

    Please discuss if interested, trolls who insist on discussing and/or insulting posters will be ignored (by me).
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  3. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    No doubt people have a unique experience when they are clinically dead for a time. The things they describe sound like personal interpretations of an emotional event.

    To me it does nothing to prove or disprove anything about an afterlife but it does sound like a profound experience.

    Being conscious of sleep paralysis is often accompanied by the sensation that there is someone in the room with the experiencer but there is no reason to conclude that feeling describes reality. This sounds like a similar phenomenon.
     
  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    depends how you want to define afterlife
     
  5. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that claim is that if they are "clinically dead", why should they experience anything at all, much less have experiences that have several major commonalities? The blind experience vision, the deaf experience hearing sounds, similar visions that don't seem to be attributed to a dying brain (e.g. seeing parts or their entire lives being played out, being able to describe their resuscitation accurately and in detail), etc.?
     
  6. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    They come back to life though. Has anyone been able to identify at what point during the NDE that these feelings and experiences occur? Is it immediately before, during or after the period of being clinically dead? It would be fascinating to see brain scans of someone experiencing this phenomenon.

    Thats funny. While reading the article I thought about what they meant by atheists experiencing NDEs. Obvs we know what Anthony Flew meant. Yes, what is meant by afterlife in this context is not clearly defined for me in this situation. I have not learned very much about NDEs. It would be interesting to know more.
     
  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    false no one here to date has properly understood flew.
     
  8. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    B1BF81B4-37B2-4893-8036-C510C0E43E72.gif
     
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  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    yeh people are often bored with that to which they do not understand, like physics for instance.
     
  10. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Yes so it means that clinically dead is not necessarily dead.

    I'm guessing it's impossible to know since there's no communication.

    I can't imagine what that would show since brain scans have limited application. In other words they don't show what kind of thinking is going on. In any case if it's truly an "out of body experience (OBE)", nothing would show since it's OBE. If it's not then see prior sentence.

    It's all scientific guesswork and while it does not prove an afterlife it can't just be dismissed as a physical phenomenon that occurs at the edge of death and that there's no such thing as an afterlife. For me this has nothing to do with religion or mysticism and is just something we don't understand scientifically ... yet.
     
  11. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Dude that thread about neo atheism is three years of you saying the same thing over and over.
     
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  12. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Brain scans are amazing and can tell you a lot about what a person is thinking and feeling in the moment and help diagnose long term conditions. They have even identified the state the brain us in when people feel the presence of God.
     
  13. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I have no control over the the 'rewind/replay' neoatheists, in denial.
    They just get to suffer the agony of defeat as I prove their rational is nonsense over and over, meh I get lots of laughs.
    Like you coming in and claiming what you feel is legitimate for definitions, its not, your claimed religious identities are contradictions in terms that results in a conclusion of confusion.
    The brain reacts to stimuli, the scans show what part of th brain reacts to what stimuli
     
  14. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    No brain scan can tell what a person is thinking. Perhaps a state of stress, a tumor, cancer, other defect or a potential psychological disorder but definitely not what a person is actually thinking.

    I'm sorry that makes zero sense. How in the world would a brain scan know anything about a mythical entity, never mind that a person "feeling" the presence of a mythical entity?

    But you certainly can post any legitimate evidence you believe supports either of the above claims.
     
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  15. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Yeah for sure Brain scans can show how people are feeling. They can also show the areas of the brain that become active during different activities.

    Regarding the god thing it was a big thing a few years back. There’s a guy who claims to be able to cause people to feel the presence of God too.

    Quick bing search brings up this article but I think I saw a Ted talk about it too at one point.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/aug/30/medicalresearch.neuroscience
     
  16. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    tricking the brain isnt hard, we could blind fold you and put you in a freezer and you would think you were sitting in the tundra
     
  17. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    From the article you provided the link to:

    The scans were taken as nuns relived intense religious experiences. They showed a surge in neural activity in regions of the brain that govern feelings of peace, happiness and self-awareness. Psychologists at the University of Montreal say the research, which appears in the journal Neuroscience Letters, was not intended to confirm or deny the existence of God, but set out to examine how the brain behaves during profound religious experiences.

    It doesn't support anything other than confirm that deeply religious people are wired (indoctrinated) into their brains to "feel the presence" of the mythical god nearly 24/7. And certainly such thinking might produce a specific set of brain scans perhaps similar to the feeling of some kind of euphoria that one might feel from anything else that would produce such a feeling. So I tend to agree with Koko on this somewhat in terms of the ability to trick the brain (how hard it is or not is arguable):

    And that's one of the primary characteristics of religion, people are tricked into it.
     
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  18. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    It is understandable and rational for one to say that there is no evidence of God and that they do not believe in God, do not care and are not interested in the whole of it. But for that person to then say or conclude that because there is no evidence, therefore there is no God, is like the blind man who says that because he cannot see, therefore there is nothing to be seen, and the sighted are fools. It is to believe ones own press and lengthen ones stride into the unknown or to construct upon nothing, like the darkening of darkness. It is one thing to be blind. It is another to glory in it. Self delusion is strong. It is the realm of false prophets and self proclaimed instruments of God. They too are so deluded and self important, perceiving the abandonment of reason as a great stride in progress, one to a false reason, the other to a false calling. In fact it is nothing more than an experiment gone awry and abandoned. Jesus said that to see or enter heaven one must first be reborn of water and spirit, contrary to or a quickening of our first birth of flesh and blood. But Atheists push all that aside and say, show me heaven, as if it were rational to arrive without leaving or reap without sowing. There is a science to salvation. There are many sciences. Atheists love to invoke science and say that when science proves God, they will believe. But they won't employ the science of God. They are too mighty to humble themselves to pray as if it were a sin against their foregone oaths. Thus they are imprisoned of themselves. So they make their proclamations to the great unknown like a child afraid of the dark wherein monsters seize upon the gullible in their unawares. Might not they have faith that there is more than the nothing in which they believe. They hold the keys to their own locks.
     
  19. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Yes and that is why I would be curious to see the brain scans of people experiencing NDE’s.
     
  20. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Sure that would be interesting parlor banter, but useless info otherwise unless you can demonstrate the 'source of the stimuli' causing that to occur in the brain.

    but bob, atheists are religious, and worshiping a diety is not necessarily a 'religion'.

    What about all the people whose brains are tricked into atheism by neoatheist lies and subterfuge? Do they count too?

    the title of this thread is a false premise.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  21. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    I've been interested in NDEs for a very long time as part of my trying to understand the relationship between consciousness and the brain. As a Christian I have a biblical view of how the universe came into being, but I also have a strong respect for science. Science is one of the most powerful tools for understanding the properties of the universe, and perhaps consciousness is a property of the universe existing independent to the brain.

    Does Consciousness Exist Outside of the Brain? -
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain

    "
    The prevailing consensus in
    neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain, there can be no consciousness.

    But according to the decades-long research of Dr. Peter Fenwick, a highly regarded neuropsychiatrist who has been studying the human brain, consciousness, and the phenomenon of near-death experience (NDE) for 50 years, this view is incorrect. Despite initially being highly incredulous of NDEs and related phenomena, Fenwick now believes his extensive research suggests that consciousness persists after death. In fact, Fenwick believes that consciousness actually exists independently and outside of the brain as an inherent property of the universe itself like dark matter and dark energy or gravity.'
     
  22. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Jeffersons letter to Adams was written to discredit Atheism and false Christian denominations, not the true gospel of Jesus Christ which he fully embraced.
    On Thomas Edisons death bed he said, "It's very beautiful over there". He believed in God but not the religions or religious interpretations of the time.
    George Carlin, however extremely smart, was a raunchy stand up comic/commentator seeking approval and money.
    Sorry for your upbringing. But it is no more relevant to the truth than a hasty retreat to victory. And there is nothing more supernatural than to proclaim to the vast unknown that there is no God. So I say back that I know that God is real and that he lives.
     
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  23. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Knowing at what point during the NDE the experience of an afterlife occurs would be useful info. Any info is better than none.
     
  24. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    And yet he was more insightful, more free thinking, and more moral than the average priest.
     
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  25. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    In some ways, yes. But he also talked a lot.
     

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