Reparations I can live with...

You say that as if they have a choice. In a first past the post system dividing politics into only two sides, where one side makes false promises and the other side is openly hostile to you, can you really blame people for picking the former?

 

this is called a strawman. If you don't know what a strawman is, it's when a person makes **** up and attributes it to someone else, in order to argue against that, instead of what the person actually said.

Next time, try not making **** up. It will help you not look like an amateur.

 

of course we do. there is nothing at all forcing anyone to choose to not study in school. there is nothing at all forcing anyone to choose to not go to college or learn a trade. everyone has the same ability and access to schools. choosing not to utilize it is your own fault, and nobody elses.

 

Hardly strawman, it's more like dodge and divert on your part. The question was:
How do you account for the 10 fold difference in mean net worth?
And you said: "Poor life choices are nobody’s fault except for the person making the choice." So this huge gap in net worth is due to poor choices. That therefore implies there must be some sort of deficit in black decision making and not a product of external powers which you deny. Do I have that right?
You also stated: "You can’t show that though, as it has nothing to do with me." or I don't care. Do I have that right?

 

I'm kinda done with this thread.. It was founded on an false premise

 

no, that is your strawman. Choices are individual, not based on group/race/gender.

correct. you can not show that I have harmed a single person of color, and therefore I can not be legally held liable or made to pay reparations for something I did not do.

 

So it's just a strange statistical anomaly why whites are 10 times richer than blacks and nothing to do with race? Amazing, I would say your "individual choice" is the strawman..

 

then you clearly don't know what a strawman is. I know it destroys your ideology and narrative, but everyone is responsible for the choices they make. Choosing to drop out of school, not study, not go to college or a trade school has nothing to do with me. That is entirely on the individual who chose it.

 

First, not everyone has the opportunity to go to school. Second, some who do don't have stable homes or enough to eat to be able to focus at school. Third, there are many other advantages some are born into that others are not. We do NOT all start in equal position, on an even playing feild, or even on the same playing feild.

I dont know what dream world you live in where everybody can afford to or is allowed to go to college. That must be a much nicer world than Earth is.

 

If the added wealth of all white people divided by the total number of white people is ten times higher than the added wealth of all black people divided by the total number of black people, that does NOT mean whites are ten times richer than blacks.

You don't seem to be able to understand that, and your failure to understand that is either a failure to understand statistics or a desire to misstate due to racial prejudice. Which is it?

 

every single person in this country has the opportunity to go to school. It's actually mandated.

Schools have meal plans. Nothing prevents kids from paying attention in school, or studying.

everyone has the same ability and access to public schools everywhere in this country.

we quite demonstrably start in equal positions. From there, poor choices affect the outcomes.

strawman. affordability has nothing to do with it.

you should probably avoid making **** up and address what I actually say.

 

Your country is a very small percentage of the world population. It is only now that you are shifting goal posts to "in this country". I know Americans tend to forget the rest of the world exists... but it does.

Going home to abusive and neglectful parents, and violent neighbourhoods may cause some difficulty on a child focusing on studies.

I don't think that is true. I don't think your schools all get the same amount of funding or the same competence of teaching or the same teacher to student ratios or the same cultures for learning. You even have private schools for rich kids and private tutors last I checked.

[/quote]
we quite demonstrably start in equal positions. From there, poor choices affect the outcomes. [/quote]

We quite demonstrably don't. Not worldwide, and not within your own country either.

So just sneak in and hack yourself a diploma? If you don't pay, I think that may be the only other way. How do you expect a Filipino boy living in a dump in Manila to get into Harvard? How do you expect a homeless child with a drug addict mother living on the street in Los Angeles to?

I addressed what you said. You said there is nothing at all forcing anyone (you didn't say in America; but even that is false) to choose not to go to college. That is demonstrably false if taken as you meant it, and a statement with a false statement imbedded in it (that everyone has that choice) if taken perfectly literally.

"Anyone" would include everyone on earth, not just the small population in your country, and even in your country you don't have free college for all, and your colleges don't admit everyone regardless of the intellect they are born with (and they shouldn't). If you don't have the money for college, and can't get a bursary or scholarship, you're not going to college. If you are born with too low an intelligence to go to college, you're also not going to college. Your claim is false.

Your example of college is also only one case of where we don't all play on an even playing field, which was your original claim. There are many other ways in which we don't have the same advantages or disadvantages. One is the one you showed a dismissal of already, that we aren't all born in first world countries, countries in which there isn't war raging on, etc.

There are also vast differences in raw intelligence, diet fed by parents, having two parents in the home who aren't abusing each other in front of you, being born with physical disabilities, and even genetic height, weight, and beauty differences.

Edna wants to group every black person as the same, which is wrong, but she's not wrong that being black in some areas of the USA and in some social situations is a disadvantage. It can be an advantage in others. Same goes for gender, etc. Of course these same individuals who may be treated racistly badly by may also have massive privilege otherwise, including being treated racistly well by people like Edna here.

To claim that we are all given equal standings and the same opportunities, is just plain incorrect.

 

We are discussing reparations for African americans in this country. The goalposts remain firmly in place.

not studying remains a choice. people from abusive homes, regardless of race, can and have moved on to successful lives.

Having no relevance to objective reality. Every single person has access to free public school in this country.

irrelevant. everyone has the same access to schools/education.

yes, in this country. we are not discussing worldwide, we are discussing reperations for African americans.

strawman

nope. everyone has the ability and opportunity to go to college. If you can't afford it, work a part time job and go to a community college or trade school. Take out student loans. Work hard in high school and get a scholarship. All choices.

again, you need to address what the topic is, and not try and deflect.

all of this is irrelevant to the fact everyone has the same opportunities.

Edna is quite demonstrably wrong, as I have already shown.

It is quite demonstrably correct. EVERYONE has the same opportunities, and the same equal standing under the law.

 

I gave numerous examples of how everyone does not have the same opportunities, abilities, and access, and you just dismissed it all repeating your mantra thst they do, calling every clear counterexample irrelevant. You haven't addressed anything I wrote any more than Edna did. You both appear to be stuck in competing religions.

 

Nope, your strawman is the "individual with poor choices" everyman. You seem to be unable to confront the fact that there is a 10:1 mean difference in wealth between blacks and whites. Could it be just random poor choices by individuals that accounts for this? What are the odds? The evidence, which you are in denial of and seem afraid to face, points to their race being the issue.

I am well aware that some whites are poorer that the mean and some blacks are richer than the mean, that's hardly the point. The statistical 10:1 difference is. You, like rahl bend over backward to the point of absurdity to deny the racial component. How do you account for the wide difference without bringing race into the problem?

 

So you don't know what a strawman is. Figures.

addressed this already.

yes, that is exactly what it is.

which is demonstrably false, as shown by numerous minorities elevating themselves out of poverty.

there is no racial component, as I've shown you already. Poor life choices is what accounts for the difference.

 

More hyperbolic nonsense. I see African Americans as individuals who have distinct cultural concerns. Not your black and white denial of race. If 87% of African American believe the justice system is racist (which they do) do you need to have 100% agree on the issue before you'll admit it is a an issue associated with their race? Your personal issues aside there are groups who when they are threatened or need to help one another coalesce because humans are tribal and that will not change and some of those groups are based on race.

 

You are indeed engaging in strawmen. I do not deny that racism and historical racism are factors in why there are more rich white people than there are rich black people, especially in your country where you literally enslaved a group of black people, some of whom were the ancestors of some modern black people. That's definitely going to shift the average within the grouping, since a lot of wealth and opportunities are inherited.

Next you will say I deny there is still racism that hold some black people back, won't you? That would be another straw man. Race is a factor (both for and against people of all races in different ways), but that does NOT mean we should treat them as monolithic groups and does NOT mean either that those within your groupings are all equally disadvantaged or that plenty of them aren't actually quite advantaged as individuals.

 

Well I think the "individual with poor choices everyman" fits nicely with a fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.

Simple denial and cherry picking exceptions are hardly convincing arguments.

 

your argument was of course properly addressed, and completely refuted.

I agree, which is why I didn't do that. I directly refuted your premise. Race is irrelevant. Life choices are relevant.

 

You have consistently demonstrated the opposite. I pointed it out each time and each time you ignored my doing so. You spoke of a "true representation" as if there could be one, when we are actually talking about numerous individuals all who differ. You equated "Black" to a culture, when it isn't; black people vary across a wide variety of cultures. You asked

I don't deny race. I simply refuse to be prejudiced about it, the way you have shown you are.

Suddenly you've switched this to "associated with their race". Even if rahl is right (which he/she isn't) and the average for black people is lower than that for white people just because of choices people make, that would still be "associated with their race" now wouldn't it?

Before you were saying that groups have opinions and that groups have circumstances, and that there are representative cases (based on group average I presume), and that we should regard that as what it is to be that race. That is FALSE, racist, and harmful.

People do tend to be tribal. That's not a good thing. That's how racism happens. It is to be guarded against. Are you making excuses for it?

 

Refuted? You completely failed to account for the 10 to 1 racial discrepancy. That's like saying the reason my team won 10 games and yours won 1 is because we made more baskets. The answer is superficial and doesn't answer the question as to why more baskets were made.

Must I repeat myself. "Black" in the American colloquial context means African American and they have a specific culture which all of this you seem in denial of. When I referred to "true representation" it was in the context of you having repeatedly referenced the black privileged class and I said they are not a true representatives of the community. Would you have a problem if I said white supremacists are not true representatives of the white community? They are a minority as well.

You seem to be the one racist here, like rahl. Refusing to acknowledge the wishes, opinions and existence of a culture. I am not the one asking for reparations, they are. That lack of respect belittles them.

BTW being tribal is neither good or bad it is how it is used.

 

I do deny and reject your demand that “Black” is a culture. “Black in America” isn’t a unified culture either.

What white community? White is not a community. Nor is “white American” a unified community.

You keep insisting on conflating race for culture. Races do not have opinions. Groups do not have opinions. Individuals do. And it is you who keep refusing to acknowledge these individuals’ opinions, in favour of pretending group averages or imagined group averages are their opinions.

You keep trying to speak for them. You don’t speak for me. I don’t want reparations. And I don’t want others to get reparations based solely on race. That is racist and will only encourage more racism all around.

It is no coincidence that we have seen a rise in white nationalism as regressive “liberals” (who are not liberal) insist on everyone identifying as their race. Critical Race Theory has far more in common with white nationalism than either have in common with actual liberalism.

Being tribal is very rarely good.

 

why are you making things up? I addressed it already. Individual poor life choices.

.

Actually it’s nothing like that at all. It’s like saying your team won 10 games and mine only won one, because your team practiced harder.

Because your analogy is invalid.

 

freewill is a myth according to science.