Replacing the M16/M4

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Black Monarch, Aug 31, 2011.

  1. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    The .45 round is pretty accurate in the right pistol. It is harder to shoot than lighter rounds, though.
     
  2. Mandrake

    Mandrake New Member

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    Not really. A rifle with a rusty sewer pipe of a barrell is more likely to explode if you are unfortunate enough to get a round to chamber.
     
  3. Mandrake

    Mandrake New Member

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    Its not a high speed round and has a short range, which is why it was relegated to Colt pistol and Thompson use only. Only bottleneck rounds have a high velocity and range. You'd have to have a 7' or greater barrell to get the range of 7.62x54r round of one hundred years ago.
     
  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    What?

    Are you aware of what the differences actually are?

    The M-16 series weapons (like the AK, and most other military weapons of the world) operate on the system of Gas Operation. This is where the rifle uses a tube that connects between a small hole in the front of rifle to the bolt itself. This takes a small amount of the gas to operate the bolt, resulting in little carbon fouling and smooth operation.

    Pistols work on what is known as "Gas Blowback". In short, the entire receiver is forced back because of the back-pressure behind the round that is fired. This makes for a slower cycle of operation, a stronger recoil, and a lower muzzle velocity of the round (part of Newton's Laws). Gas Operation is used for Assault Rifles (M-16, AK-47), Gas Blowback is used in Submachine Guns (Thompson, UZI).

    ANother major difference is that Assault Rifles use Rifle cartridges. 7.62 or 5.56 being the most common. Submachine Guns use Pistol Cartridges, 9mm and .45 being the most common.

    The differences between the two are huge.

    And if you think I would believe that replacing the 5.56mm upper of the M-16 with a gas blowback system, you need to have a urinalisys taken.
     
  5. E_Pluribus_Venom

    E_Pluribus_Venom Well-Known Member

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    FN SCAR-H or ACR.
     
  6. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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    Screw standardization. The infantry should have a selection of whatever firearms, calibers and scopes they need/want. The dregs who write TPS reports all day can have M4/M16 hand me downs to wear around the office.
     
  7. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Great, so when you run out of ammo, you can't borrow from any of your teammates because none of their ammo will fit. When you bend a firing pin or break a spring, you will be SOL because the armory won't have any replacements for your particular weapon on hand.

    Sounds like a great plan.
     
  8. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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    How often do you plan on bending your firing pin? Pick a decent rifle and you won't have that problem. Besides, how (*)(*)(*)(*)ing hard is it for an armory to stock up on cheap parts?

    Stop whining.
     
  9. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    With the hassle they have to go through for acquisition, it would be a nightmare stocking thousands of different parts for different weapons. Firing pin replacement may not be too common (although I remember the armorers having to replace several last time I deployed) but things like spring guides break very often.

    Ammo would be even worse, trying to stock 50 different calibers of shells because some idiot decides he needs to carry a 50 caliber pistol or a .410 shotgun.

    And you still left out the issue of sharing between teams. Many times guys have to share/redistribute ammo because one person ends up having to use his up or his gets lost/damaged. Without standard equipment sharing is impossible.

    What would actually happen is every experienced member would stick with the standard M4/M9 package we use today and every idiot private would have a different (usually useless) setup based on his misguided belief on what an infantryman should carry, rather than based on what is really best for the mission and the team.
     
  10. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    You're crazy. I had to do a 6 month gig in the armory for my unit. Your average Infantry BN carries more than 50 different types of weapons and optics as it is. Keeping track of and repairing all the gear was a nightmare. Having dozens of additional weapons would be stupid. You'd also be amazed at what weapons and optics are put through in a warzone. It's not like pulling your rifle out of the family gun safe once a month to shoot it on the range.
     
  11. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I feel for you on that one. On my last trip we had quite a few guys have to hit up the armory during predeployment training for crazy things they broke (or things that broke themselves. :) )

    I can't imagine the things that you must have seen come in for service during that stint.
     
  12. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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    Are you sure we're on the same page here? This thread is about rifles, not helicopters.

    So the troops are too dumb to bring a mix of weapons that make sense for whatever their mission is? Yes, let's make that decision for them, and give everyone the 223 "prairie dog" round whether they like it or not. No scopes unless everybody gets one, and they all have the same part #.

    Then try not to waste/lose/damage your hundreds of rounds of ammo.

    Somehow I doubt that.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    It is not hard at all. In fact, most units have ample supply parts in the unit's PEB.

    However, if there is no standard, then they need to stock replacement parts for every individual weapon. And be trained to work on each weapon.

    And firing pins do not break much, but they do wear out. They replaced the one in my rifle the last time we went to the range.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    The 5.56mm round is one of many that was standardized by NATO. But it is not the only round available.

    Somehow I doubt that.

    And what have we here? 3 perfectly standard US military weapons.

    First is the M-249. 5.56mm.

    Next is the M-16. 5.56mm.

    Then we have the M-240. 7.62mm.

    Yep, perfectly standard US military weapons. Nothing unusual there at all.
     
  15. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it was awful.....a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Walking into that armory the first day was literally the worst day of my enlistment (including all my OIF time). I eventually manuevered my way back into a line platoon though.

    I saw a lot of dumb stuff while in there. As a grunt I spent half my days just teaching all the idiots in headquarters company how to use their equipment. Guys putting their PEQ-2s and RCOs on backwards was a weekly occurence.
     
  16. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    Its not about being "dumb" its about experience and understanding. The military has panels of experts with years of experience to figure out just exactly what weapons are carried and how. I can't tell you how many times I'd see new officers (college educated) show up to my unit with their gear all jacked up. In fact, its one of the best ways to tell how competent/experienced an infantryman is. Units will have very specific load out requirments but give some disgression to individuals on how they carry that load and with what.

    I don't know what your talking about with scopes. They're very valuable to have and it would be silly to get rid of them.

    In combat you tend to "waste" a lot of rounds when your shooting at people. Everyone doesn't shoot the same number of rounds. The SAW gunner in the team covering the flank is going to have A LOT more rounds than the SAW gunner laying down the base of fire. Redistribution is sometimes quite neccessary. It's not coincidence that the SAW can fire the same magazines as the M4/16.
     
  17. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    You're comparing apples and oranges. I was saying the .45 can be very accurate. It is a very accurate 25 yard cartridge. Of course it doesn't compare to a rifle round.
     
  18. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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    More standard US military weapons I guess. Not like we need more calibers or parts in our armories or anything.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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    Reading comprehension is your friend. Go back and read what I've actually posted and responded to, then try again. Or don't.
     
  20. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    My comments addressed all of your statements. In summation, standardization is VERY neccessary.
     
  21. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

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    Ya, apparently you're not aware how the supply system works in the military.
     
  22. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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  23. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    All your pictures are of specialized units. It proves nothing.
     
  24. Right Hook

    Right Hook New Member Past Donor

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    Ya, apparently you've got nothing to add to this sorry ass debate either. Do I file this under "crying about how hard it is to store parts"?
     
  25. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When you've worked contracting or acquisitions, you'll understand all of the hassle there is in purchasing anything in the military. It is relatively easy for standard items that we have worked standard channels for, but even those take time and effort.

    For anything non-standard it is a bureaucratic nightmare.
     

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