Rightwingers: America is Multi-Racial. Get used to it.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Doug1943, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It certainly isn't the Republicans who push for early education here in Seattle where I live. Republicans fight against this as including younger students requires increased spending on education, if for no other reason.

    I think you're scrambling issues. You keep wanting to say something is black or whatever, and you're upset when someone says it isn't connected to race. WHY?

    I'm glad to see you being open to large numbers of immigrants, I guess.
     
  2. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Anyone who wants to get the full dope on crime -- race, age, who knew their killer, etc. -- needs to go to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports. Here is a spreadsheet for 2013 crime. I have to warn you that this site is a bear to deal with. You probably have to spend several hours looking through it to get a feel for what is where.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm fine with disallowing immigration by individuals who have radical views that have proven to be dangerous.

    But, that's not what's happening here. What's happening is mass profiling - denying entry by people from a specific country or people who hold to a religion we hate.

    We're deciding that those at personal risk of death at the hands of drug gangs can't get asylum here.

    I had dinner with a woman here from Syria. Before the war, she was near the top in their agricultural administration. Where she lived was bombed to dust and she escaped with her 12 yo son. The US allowed her entry, but kept her son in a prison in Jordan for many MONTHS of interrogation to see if he was a mortal risk to America.

    It's easy to say "immigration needs to be controlled". Obviously every last American believes that to be true. There are NO dissenters. Contrary to the popular right wing LIE Americans are not in favor of open borders - not even slightly.

    But, we put pre-teens in jail. We require them to stand before our court system as individuals without legal assistance and without parental support to attempt to make their cases for asylum. We STILL haven't reunited the families Trump split up - without bothering to have a plan for EVER bringing those families back together again.

    If we want to go after crime (which keeps coming up in this thread) let's recognize the fact that immigrants are NOT the source of our crime problem.

    And, let's remember that there are things we can do to get more people working.
     
  4. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, Republicans don't want to spend government money on anything except the military, There is a pernicious alliance between the Left and the Right on this: that's why San Francisco is littered with homeless, why we don't have an effective Early Childhood Education program, etc.

    As for 'large numbers' of immigrants, I don't have a position one way or the other, except that, as far as numbers are concerned, we need to take note of physical 'carrying capacity' and also likelihood to assimilate to our civilized norms.

    I don't understand what you're saying re race. Some things are connected to race: the Black crime rate is far far higher than the white, even when you control for income. (That is, if you take a representative sample of poor whites and poor Blacks, equally poor, then the Blacks will have a much higher crime rate.)

    It's a question of 'culture'. How can we change that? How can we make achieving academically 'acting Black' so that young Blacks will want to do it? I've got some ideas, and I've mentioned them here in this thread, giving the example of a charter school (the Left hates charter schools and wants to keep Black children trapped in crappy sub-standard inner-city public schools) where almost all the kids are Black or Latino, and where they're achieving very well. I hope you would support such things.
     
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  5. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't disagree with this, in spirit. If I were calling the shots, the US might actually have a lot more Muslim immigration ... but ... anyone thinking about this had better look at Europe and its experiences with fairly unrestrained (until recently) Muslim immigration. Please don't tell me there is not a problem here.

    If you'd like to read more about the problem, something written by a Muslim immigrant, look here.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's a great site if you happen to be a racist. I mean, yes you can divide the problem along race lines.

    But, where is the similar spreadsheet divided on socio-economic lines or gender lines or any other lines than race?

    There is nothing even remotely scientific about assuming a conclusion and then gathering data that is divided along the lines of your conclusion.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I see superficial analyses of these issues of recent large scale immigration all the time.

    Let's remember that the number of immigrants compared to the number of residents has been unlike anything we've seen in some of these cases. Also, France (and others) have had difficulties in allowing minorities into jobs that pay well, meaning that they had a built in issue before immigrants ever arrived.

    You can't limit yourself to NR and think you have a complete picture.
     
  8. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    While I generally support civic nationalist posts, the OP is very inaccurate.

    First, it conflates the belief that multiracial societies can't work, with hatred/scorn towards minorities. You can make a legitimate case for the first, while the second is indeed sick and should stop period. But stop confusing the two, that's a progressive tactic.

    And second, it claims that there is no alternative to multiracial America, but there is. You could split America into several countries along racial lines. If the majority of Americans supports that, both whites and minorities, then this is an alternative.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  9. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, if you divide criminals along lines of sex, you'll find that the overwhelming majority of them, especially the violent ones, are male. It's not that women have more money than men.

    If you look at criminals, especially violent ones, you'll find very few millionaires among them. Duh.

    I happen to know just a little bit about how to do social science analysis, by the way, but thanks for the advice.

    As for being scientific about crime and its causes. No disrespect to you, but I get the impression that you haven't read much on this subject, and that your analysis is the standard one of the not-very-well-informed well-meaning liberal, which we can sum up as: crime is caused by poverty -- the phrase 'root cause' usually appears at this point -- and Black crime is caused by both poverty and white racism. Often the phrase 'legacy of slavery' makes its appearance here. (There's a matching not-very-well informed analysis on the Right, which we can sum up as "it's just the way they are", sometimes buttressed by a reference to the genetics of impulsive behavior and IQ.)

    Just for the record: lots of factors cause crime. Poverty is one of them. Genetically-based IQ and impulsiveness may be another. We need to focus on the factors we can actually influence.

    Most people haven't read much on crime, so it's not a mark shame not to have done so.

    For you, and anyone else interested in this question, I highly recommend starting with the late James Q. Wilson. This link will take you to a description of his most famous book, Thinking About Crime, now a bit outdated since its last edition was in 1985, but nothing I know of has invalidated his analysis. (If you're familiar with the phrase, he was the origin of the 'broken windows ' theory. I've linked to the Wiki article on it, which is a good summary, and also includes many leftist and liberal critiques of it. As you can imagine, the Left hate the idea -- Black Lives Matter in particular denounces it. So we can be pretty sure it's a good one.)

    In the meantime, you and I both would, if given the choice between walking through any random white or Asian neighborhood at night, and walking through a Black one, make the exact same choice, wouldn't we? You racist you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  10. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, that's a fair point. In some ideal world, we could all live separately if we wanted to, and there wouldn't be any problem.

    But the reality is, there is no alternative to a multi-racial America. With respect, that's just a fantasy. If the US were a small country, then, yes, we could have a great bloody forced relocation war, otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. That's the norm all over the world. It just happened in Burma. It's what the Sinhalese would like to do to the Tamils, what the Turks did to the Greeks on Cyprus, what the two Slav nations in Yugoslavia did to each other and to the unfortunate Muslims there, what the Albanians did to the Serbs there, what happened to the Germans in Eastern and Central Europe after WWII, and we could go on and on.

    But whether this would be a good thing or not is completely irrelevant. It's like hoping Jesus will reappear and make everyone love each other. Might be a nice idea, might not, but the only fact of importance is

    IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. We are too geographically interpenetrated. Yugoslavia multiplied by a hundred.

    But ... let's imagine that things in the US became so horrible that huge numbers of people wanted it to happen.

    There are many possible variants:

    (1) The reconquista'd Southwest and West Coast could decide to cut loose and return to Mexico. Ha! That's the last place they'd want to go. (In the mad 60s adn 70s, Chicano nationalists fantasized about creating a nation called 'Aztlan' in the Southwest -- they were, in fact, ashamed of Mexico and so ruled out returning to it.) But they'd have to kill or drive out all the white, Asian and Black residents first.

    (2) In the 1930s, the Communist Party in the US discovered (mechanically following the Soviets and Lenin's 'Right of Nations to Self Determination line) a 'Negro Nation' in the South: you could get maps showing the boundaries of this supposed Nation, all the counties where the Blacks were a majority or close to it. What nonsense.

    (3) You can well imagine a large number of whites who would want to live in an all-white country -- that's what, on a small scale, rich white liberals do when they move into their gated communities, and what almost every white does when choosing a new place to live -- get as far away from 'them' as possible -- but unless there is near-universal desire among all the ethnic groups for separation, it can't happen.

    But ... we could imagine something on a smaller scale: for instance, an Alaska independence movement. Not impossible.

    Of course, I'm talking about now and the next ten or twenty years. If the US continues its internal cultural decline, and China continues its rise, then as we become Number Two in the world, and our military strength rots away through Political Correctness ... there could be some bloody, horrible apocalyptic convulsion in the US, along racial lines.

    The potential is there. But it wouldn't be some nice peaceful "I'll move out of the New Africa and you can have my house, and I'll get your cousin's house in Nova CaucasianLand as he moves here" sort of thing.

    It would be a bloody civil war. At least the Chinese would be amused.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  11. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and we see what happens to the cities when that happens.
     
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  12. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Absolutely. I just chose that NR article by Tino Sanandaji because he's a good analyst. I first came across him when he wrote a good analysis of US education results, showing that they were not so bad when compared to the results for comparable ethnic groups abroad, ie our white kids do about as well as the European average, our Black kids are way ahead of kids in Africa, and even our Asians do better than their counterparts in Asia. He's an Iranian Kurd whose parents immigrated to Sweden and is no doubt the kind of immigrant the Swedes thought they would get when they opened the doors wide.... oops.

    I absolutely agree that you cannot confine yourself to one set of sources, those that conform to your own political inclinations. You've got to follow the advice of Karl Popper and seek out 'disconfirming evidence' ... always asking yourself, about your beliefs, 'What evidence would make me change my mind?' You'll notice that I try to link to my sources so that anyone can check on what I assert. "Try", I emphasize.

    And I try to read from across the political spectrum. As I hope you do.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    y.qzrl.
    1. I don't think race matters and have said do repeatedly.

    2nd I didn't say you thought race matters the question is about providing more ammo for your own arguments against racist nonsense,

    3rd the statement is true of all crime not just homicide.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  14. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Silly argument. It's like claiming that if my attacker uses only a knife I am similarly limited. Sorry but I see no reason what ever to challenge stupid arguments with more stupid arguments and thereby become just one more braying jackass in a field far too overcrowded with such as is.
     
  15. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    It happened for India/Pakistan as well, and India is definitely not a small country. So this has nothing to do with country size.

    You can say you don't want this to happen, becuase you don't want millions to die in a likely civil war (and I'd agree with that), but saying it's impossible is simply false. As you said yourself, balkanization of multicultural countries has happened many times before throughout history, and it could very well happen in America.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  16. AlphaOmega

    AlphaOmega Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    lefties b like right wingers are racist...we support the NYT.
     
  17. AlphaOmega

    AlphaOmega Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not uncommon? ok show us 5 posts where the member wishes America to be all white. Then we will look at the covert.
     
  18. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, I actually agree that it could happen in America. America is not "God's country" with some special divine protection. We could descend to the level of Third World savagery.

    If the rise of China combines with the moral decline of America ... and we have some sort of military encounter with China where we are humiliated ... combine that with a big economic collapse 1929-style ... and we could see a re-run of Germany 1933. (I'm talking decades in the future now. China is nowhere near ready to show us who's boss yet.)

    But it would be bloody beyond belief. Let the crazed Left push for the break-up of America, not us.
     
  19. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Dude study after study shows that these programs don't work, crab pot syndrome kills them dead. Until you find a way to cure the under lying pathologies head start is simply a waste of everyone's time and money.
     
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  20. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    There are probably not many Americans who are explicitly in favor of 'Open Borders'. But there is a significant minority who, in practice, try to get just such a condition, or near enough as to make no difference. And they dominate the naive airheads by playing on race and class guilt.

    Let me ask you this: would you favor allowing anyone into the US who does not have criminal background, and who has not explicitly made anti-American or anti-democratic avowals? Another way of putting it: what would your criteria for immigration into the US be? There are probably very few people who would want to see MR13's remaining members in El Salvador come to the US, or the cadres of ISIS arrive here ... but are you in favor of applying other criteria than explicit commitment to murder us? In other words, are you in favor of 99% Open Borders?


    As for Open Borders, I wouldn't say that "every last American" believes in controlling immigration. Please have a look here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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