Russia to West: D-Day wasnt decisive in ending WW2.

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by zoom_copter66, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. aenigma

    aenigma Active Member

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    long nose
    black hear
    dark eyes

    Slavic features vary like any other group. Generally speaking, we tend to have long/pointy noses and round/oval faces. ... Classical Slavic features are dark hair and dark eyes with medium skin complexion

    ^^
    maybe not so german afterall
     
  2. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to disagree with both of you. German participation in Africa & even bailing out Mussolini in the Balkans had very little impact on Russia.

    During the crucial first months of Barbarossa the Afrika corps was basically one panzer division and one motorized division beefed up with a regiment of tanks from the 3rd panzer division - which participated in Barbarossa. The Germans deployed something like 150 divisions of their own in the opening stage of Barbarossa, of which 19 were panzer divisions & 13 were motorized. One more each of those wasn't going to take Moscow.

    The reasons Germany failed in 1941 & therefore lost its chance to knock out Russia were, in no particular order:

    1) Late rain: this delayed the German offensive, which meant that when the weather became unhelpful in August/September Germany had not achieved what it planned to;

    2) Logistics: Germany sucked at logistics, especially early. In 1941 Germany fielded a bewildering range of vehicles from multiple nations (I'm just talking about the Heer, not even getting in to German allies). German vehicles themselves were not always models of reliability, were generally over engineered and were produced by industry that was poorly organized and inefficient. Germany was prepared to fight a war that lasted about 3 months under decent conditions.

    Only a fool would invade Russia based on this sort of planning.

    3) The Red Army: The Red Army performed better than is generally acknowledged. most narratives of Barbarossa, especially the ones that non-specialist English speakers have read, focus on the many & varied failings of the Russian state & the Red Army in 1941. That is fair to a point. Stalin made a right mess of war preparations and defensive plans and many of the people he had in charge of Russian divisions & Armies were not up to it. Unfortunately that is where a lot of accounts end. There is usually a mention of Hitler diverting troops from the Moscow campaign (usually to tut tutting about how silly that was) and then back to 'gosh, how bad were the Russians & how unlucky were the Germans'.

    The Red Army fought hard in 1941. Despite often having indifferent leadership and equipment it fought hard. There is a reason the German offensive slowed & troops were diverted south. The Red Army was slowing things down & Germany had a very long flank. The Red Army attritted German formations. It slowed them down. It damaged & destroyed their equipment. It killed & wounded their men. It could & should have done a better job, but it did a good enough one to help stop the offensive. Russia is given too little credit for defending its own territory.

    The best way to view Barbarossa & the invasion of Russia as literally the best Germany was capable of accomplishing. So many things went right, so many more than most armies could dream of, that no better could have been done. All Russia has to do is make a few less mistakes and the whole thing grinds to a halt well before Moscow.
     
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  3. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    Bullshit, how there is almost zero russian influence.

    The very few kids that did were born got mostly killed by their mothers because the social stigma to have a imperfect Kid. Estimates think No more than 1500 Babies were born
     
  4. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    I have dark blonde Hair, blue eyes, Same face as my grandfather. My eyes are blue. Maybe you need glasses?
     
  5. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    I suspect D-day was 'decisive' in that it gave the Western powers a foothold on the
    continent - before the Communists took the whole continent.
     
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  6. Bear666

    Bear666 Banned

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    So German mothers killed their kids, I did not know that, amazing what happens when a country is over run by their enemies. Not happened to us in a 1000 years so I was unaware.
     
  7. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you see, there was this big to do with the 75th anniversary of the D-day invasion and you know Merkel was there. Russia wasn't and it appears they had to shoot their mouths off about it.
     
  8. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    Why should a German mother raise such a child?

    Which country are you from?
     
  9. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    While there were abortions, many were born but it was kept secret.
    https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...rmy-children-search-for-fathers-a-500251.html

    In https://www.amazon.com/After-Reich-Brutal-History-Occupation/dp/0465003389 I recall reading that on the one year anniversary of the fall of Berlin Soviet soldiers celebrated by going on another raping spree. The book mentions some woman escaped being violated by showing the soldiers their Russian baby.
     
  10. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    Most of this is bullshit.

    1st its almost Impossible to hide.

    My grandma told me a Girl in our city had a russian soldier as friend and got pregnant. The social stigma was gigantic. She was shunned and her family as Well. She knew what society wanted from her and after one year her baby had an accident...Nobody asked questions.

    As for Spiegel, thats Fake Reports. Spiegel is known as relotius Press in Germany. Fictional **** that feeds liberal Propaganda.

    And russian soldiers were not even allowed to leave barracks 1 year after war.
     
  11. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    First of all:
    I am German ... a German whose ancestors were resisting Hitler, sat in the concentration camp Bergen-Belsen and partly died for this, had to clear allied mines unarmed with their hands in a punitive battalion of Wehrmacht for making a bad joke about Hitler and fought against Germany in the French Foreign Legion in North Africa and Italy.


    So out of this comfortable and neutral position ...

    Do you "West Allies" really wonder what this Russian reaction is about?
    Funny ... how often in the West was the performance of the Red Army in the WW-2 talked down and was the subject of criticism and other things like "without us the Russians would have been overrun by the Krauts" etc.
    Such a stupid behavior of you, someday also creates a Russian backlash ... and instead of now playing the angry and sanctimonious clown, you should just look at the historical realities!

    And these historical facts are simple:

    Decisive for the downfall of Hilter were neither the fight in the east, nor the fight in Italy, nor the landing in Normandy with the subsequent advance to Germany and not the air war of the British and Americans alone!
    Decisive for the war was the sum total of these events with the unbelievable luck that Hitler had the sole power of decision and decided here then so often unbelievable bullshit.

    Lets go into details of your post ...

    In the winter of 194171942, the West and Western aid played no role whatsoever in the East. The defeat before Moscow is based on Hitler's stupidity, extremely bad weather and the fact that thanks to intelligence Stalin knew that Japan would not attack him, which is why he massively pull troops from the east. Otherwise, nothing played any important role in matter of a possible collapse of the USSR at this time!

    It is true that the massive air raids of the British and Americans played an important role ... but apart from the fact that the production figures in Germany rose steadily until mid-1944 ... the Western Allies had had incredible luck that Hitler intervened again ! If that had not happened, the British would have had twice as many losses during the night thanks to active night hunting into the UK, which would have made the continuation very questionable ... and the American B-17 and B-24 (and even smaller 2 engines Bombers) by day would have been slaughtered by mid-1942 massively by significantly more FW-190, but even more massively by masses of Me-262 Jetfighter. The P-51 Mustang would not have changed it either. So ... please a thank you from the British and Americans that Hitler had prevented it with his stupidity!

    It is true that the Western Allies helped the Red Army massively with the equipment deficit. Purely by value, the British and the Commonwealth got with over 31 billion USD from the US three times of what the USSR got with over 10 billion USD from the US ... BUT ... over 400,000 jeeps and trucks, 13,000 locomotives and freight cars, 90 cargo ships, 4,000 bombers, 10,000 fighter planes and over 7,000 tanks were delivered to their Soviet allies by the US. The British and Canadians supplied another 5,000 tanks and 7,000 aircraft.
    However, the fact is that much was not really useful in the fight against the Wehrmacht, because outdated and far inferior material. American M-2 "Stuarts" were for example a joke and only "victim without combat value" for the German tanks and anti-tank. Other things were important and helped!

    And as for the brutality and the handling in the Red Army ... Keyword "behind it were NKVD soldiers who shot fleeing Russians" ... that's the fact. Historians and other experts predict that around half of the slain or wounded Red Army soldiers, as well as many material losses, are due to sheer inability and indifference to losses.
    Incidentally, the same often applies to the German troops, because the farther the war progressed and the situation became more hopeless, the more the German leadership and above all Hitler acted in the same way .... German army receding soldiers often met SS organizations, they shot as well as the NKVD units their Red Army soldiers!
     
  12. aenigma

    aenigma Active Member

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    i got lightblue eyes, yours are definatly on the darker side then but your right there
    but if thats dark blond in your photo i'm the emperor of china

    though technicle blue eyes proves that you got east european blood somewhere, since it originated at the black sea ;)
     
  13. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    My hair is dark blonde

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Generally, you will get that reaction when Russia downplays western allied efforts. It's a backlash to their insults. Anyone who knows history is well aware of the Soviets contributions to the war effort, but their leadership will often be faulted for the complete disregard of their solders lives.

    What mistake could have resulted in a massive increase in FW-190 in 1942?
     
  15. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    One point where you are absolutely right is that USSR got the most massive help from Japan - if Japan attacked USSR in 1941 it would not survive.
    Funny enough, when Japan started to get its behind kicked by Americans USSR declared the war and occupied some islands, which it still holds to this day.

    In a way, Japan was punished for allowing USSR to mount a defense in the west.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  16. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Conversely, there was often enough downplaying of the Russian share in the victory against Nazi Germany in the West before ... who is surprised then a corresponding Russian backlash like this? Not me!

    The FW-190 ... also known as "Butcher" by the Western Allies ... was the other German fighter, the Me-109 ... in many ways superior, but inferior by the end of 1942 at high altitude.
    Twice as many FW-190s as they actually did in the West in 1942 would have meant many massive small attacks on Allied Air Bases in the UK, or the fight against the British Spitfire and American P-47s traveling across England or the North Sea.
    The B-17 and B-24 were fought mainly by the Me-109 until the end of 1942 because until then the ME-109 was better at high altitude.
    You must not forget that the P-51 Mustang only from November 1943 accompanied the bombers deep into Germany and protected. Look at the loss of the USAAF until then, they were already violent ... and now imagine. Hitler would not have banned the offensive air defense by the FW-190, which gave the allied fighters fool freedom to the Channel coast. For example, the Me-109 would not have had to deal with any of the P-47 Thunderbolts, or later with P-51 Mustangs, but only with the American four-engine from the coast to the German destination and back!
    And then take the Me-262 as the first German jetfighter to this...
    This slaughter would have been so heavy for the USAAF bombers that they would have dropped off the bombing raids and would have switched to night bombing like the Brits ... and no American expert has doubts so far this point
     
  17. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now THAT is funny! Very poetic too.
     
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  18. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Donor

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    Just like under Moscow in December of 1941?
     
  19. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, no. I worked as an intern for a judge in Chicago for a short time. The Volkswagen company had a case before this particular judge, and their lawyer looked like the quintessential German... 6', broad shoulders, blond hair, high forehead, big head, military bearing... I was surprised when he spoke that he didn't have a German accent.
     
  20. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    By the way, the whole story is much more extensive, weird and also "funnier".
    It was a German Communist in Japan - Richard Sorge - who was a writer and journalist in the service of the soviet GRU, who gave Stalin the final reassurance that Japan would not attack him.
    In 1939, there had been a brief and violent USSR war with Japan, with Japan getting a very bloody nose from the Red Army! That was a lesson for Japan and it had "other goals" afterwards!
    Of course, Hitler wanted Japan to join, but Japan said no ...

    Hitler had been putting shackles on his submarines the entire time if the US Navy was somehow involved in the Atlantic ... and, as you know, the US acted very pro-British. Hitler wanted to avoid war with the US at all costs and not have a 2nd Lousitania case!
    All were then astonished when on December 11, after Hitler declared Pearl Harbor the US war and unsigned and Japan supported ... although they had said no to him at the USSR!

    By the way ... that is also a powerful counterargument for the conspiratorial circus of because of the US and Rossevelt had intentionally let happen the Japs to attack Pearl Harbor to enter the war against Germany. Nobody could know that Hitler is so stupid and declares war on the US for no real reason to help Japan, although Japan gave him the cold shoulder in his attack on the USSR. And the attack of the Japanese in itself means only war of the USA with Japan ... but not at all war with Germany to help Chruchill and the British against Hitler!
     
  21. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you're asking here. The Nazi war machine bogged down in the Russian winter just as Napoleon's did, but unlike Napoleon, Hitler didn't retreat. He told his forces to hold and they did. Come spring, things would have gone very badly for the Russians if it hadn't been for emergency American supplies that started shipping that winter.
     
  22. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ah... so you're from Kazakhstan? Volga region, perhaps? :handshake:
     
  23. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of silly arguments going on here & some equally silly statements being made. Far too many to tackle. Egos & agendas make for bad history. I'll just make a few general points.

    While the article in the OP is a silly bit of snark from a political hack in a second rate authoritarian regime in a third rate country with a permanent victim complex, on its face the statement is correct. D Day wasn't decisive when it came to beating Germany. It sped up the end of the war, it saved a lot of Russian lives (which Russians tend to overlook), and it stopped Russia dominating Europe (which Russians seem not to have forgiven). However, Germany was crippled by the end of 1942 and on life support by the end of 1943.

    While I have little time for modern Russia, I do have a degree of sympathy for those who feel Russia's role is underrated or misrepresented. Sadly the history of the Russian Front got caught up in the Cold War. Russian accounts tended to be shaped very firmly by the diktats of the government. Western historians would love to have had proper access to Russian personnel & archives, but that was never going to happen. Some of the work produced in the sadly brief window of openness post-Cold War & pre-Putin has been outstanding.

    The limited access to Russian sources had a couple of impacts. One was to make it easier to overlook or downplay Russian contributions. Another more subtle impact was that the first hand accounts of former German officers tended to have a disproportional impact on perspectives. Their views of the Red Army as an inferior opponent only capable of winning by brute force, and their tendency to shift blame for defeats to others - Hitler always a convenient scapegoat - seeped into broader understandings of the war. All of this suited the prejudices of plenty of writers and readers, while those who might seek an alternative view had fewer resources. It should be pointed out that it is possible to overstate all of this. No serious account of WW2 has questioned the vital nature of the Russian contribution or the scale of Russian suffering. Indeed, without access to more accurate information these accounts sometimes unknowingly overstated the scale of the losses and understated some of the less savoury aspects of Russia's behaviour. However, the end result was less than accurate & often less than completely fair.

    So, for those addicted to the 'what if Germany just did....' view, or incapable of paying the Red Army its due, here is my perspective from decades of reading & debating far smarter & better read people than myself.

    In 1941 Russia faced the most powerful military force in history. The Wehrmacht was at its peak. Tactically it was the finest force in the world. It had soldiers & more importantly officers who had rolled through Poland, defeated what was supposedly the best army in the world, and then campaigned in the Balkans. Facing this was an army that was still recovering from purges of its officer corps & the unpicking of its best doctrines. It had performed poorly against tiny Finland and much of its equipment was poorly maintained. Worse, its formations were not well positioned to defend against the attack that came. They were in the wrong places to defend what was coming. In short, all the advantage was on the German side.

    By the end of 1941 the Red Army had been wrecked. Most of its best formations and much of its 1941 strength were gone along with their equipment & much of the airforce. That is worth remembering in any assessment of what came next. How might any Allied nation look if it lost most of its army, much of its airforce, a huge slice of population, resources & industrial base in less than 6 months? What happens next is the truly remarkable thing. Russia mounts offensives. Some effective, some disastrous. However, they consume German resources and allow the Red Army to hone its tactics. Within 18 months of being invaded the Red Army has bested the Germans. This isn't just feeding numbers into meat grinder and crudely bashing the Germans. The Russians have re-discovered the doctrines of mobile warfare they pioneered and they have reconstituted a fearsome army from the ashes. They are starting to match the Germans tactically, and by the end of 1943 they have bested them decisively. It is impossible to overstate just how remarkable an achievement this was.

    Russian industry also showed itself a master of modern industrial warfare - something Germany only came to terms with far too late. Russian equipment is well suited to the task at hand. Some is superior to German kit, some is not superior one on one, but can be produced easily and cheaply and kept in the field. Just remember, the 'best' equipment in any war is the equipment is where you need it, when you need it & in the numbers you need to win. War is not a beauty contest or a joust. It is not about the best you can make, it is about the best you can make and keep in service in the right numbers. Russia & America understood this at a fundamental level.

    For those who want to talk about lend lease - yes it was important. It did not save Russia, though there was a small amount on the ground in 1941. It did help the Red Army become the fearsome force it became and it did help Russian industry become much more effective. Without it Russia might have defeated Germany in more time & with more deaths, or it might have led to a bloody stalemate. The allied bombing offensive also made a valuable contribution to damaging German industry and sucking up German resources. However, it was Russians who did the vast bulk of the fighting & dying. They broke the German army and they did it not only with numbers, but with fine equipment, brave & skilful soldiers & some of the best Generals of the war. Whatever Russia was or is, however unworthy those governments, the scale of what was achieved by the Red Army should never be understated.
     
  24. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    This is known as leftwing revisionist history

    Whech has been going on in russia and the soviet-leaning enclaves in America since 1918
     
  25. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    The Russians attacked & beat back the Germans from the gates of Moscow during that winter. They hurt Army Group Centre so badly that it wasn't up to attacking Moscow again. That wasn't because the Allies gave Russia some equipment. It is because the Red Army was strong enough & tough enough to keep fighting despite what might seem knockout blows.

    Germany had one chance to heat Russia and it was in the summer of 1941. That chance would not have been repeated with or without Allied assistance.
     
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