Scots Begin Struggle For Independence:

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by janpor, Jan 26, 2012.

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  1. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    What on earth are you rabbiting on about now? Talk sense man.

    Scotland has as much independence as England has, more if anything.

    That Union Flag is the flag of Britain not England, the flag of England is the Cross of St George.

    Your post does go to highlight the arrogant Nationalist attitudes driving the campaign for independence though. Try telling the Pakistanis to go back to their own country they aren't welcome here and see where it gets you.
     
  2. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    Not all English people are like fredc, highlander. Many see our point of view and are not "Little Englanders". Good letter from one in The Galloway Gazette Letter Page

    Did you notice that the BBC may have, eventually, changed their admitted mistake in the article I was citing, by altering, eventually the words "relied on" for "worked with"..but they still promulgate the inaccuracy of saying an Independent Scotland would rely on the UK for anything. There will be no UK if Scotland get Independence..what Nicola Sturgeon said was England and Scotland would work together. How hard is it for people to get their head round the idea that the UK is the United Kingdom of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.and without the Scottish part of the Island of Great Britain in the Union.......there is no UK.

    But then, we always knew most Unionists, particularly English ones, as well as some equally ignorant foreigners, think England, Britain and the UK are all interchangeable and mean exactly the same. :rolleyes:
     
  3. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    Yes well not all English people own a PR and political lobbying company and are likely to get a good slice of the action if Scotland gets independence like Peter Jeal.
     
  4. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    So explain to me the difference between one individual looking to, in your opinion, maybe, with a bit of luck, on the back of one letter in a fairly obscure local newspaper, getting an in to a slice of the political action in an Independent Scotland....and hundreds of Unionist UK MPs, lobbyists, quango members, business leaders not wanting to lose the slice of the political action (and monetary benefits) they already enjoy in the UK undemocratic set-up?

    Maybe Scotland will do things differently.....Jeal, if that is at the back of his mind may be hoping we won't.....but he doesn't know, any more than you or I do.

    BTW, there are a lot of English people in the SNP you know! :rolleyes:

    You can assume that Scottish politicians will be as big ********s as UK politicians if you like....they may well be.......but what you don't seem to be able to get through your anti-nationalist, pro-unionist (and downright nasty) skull is that it does not matter that much if our politicians are not a lot different to any other politicians in the world.

    The difference comes not that they are a different breed of politicians to any others, but in that is that they are OURS and will give us the kind of Government we want, rather than the kind of Government England wishes on us...and if they don't, we can get shot of them without 55 million people who don't live here and don't care what we think deciding that we can't.

    It is that simple, imo....and if you can't see that, then you are not overly bothered about democracy, whatever impression your forum sound-bites give.

    I find it ironic that someone who can rant for the UK on the rights of Travellers to be above any UK law which doesn't suit them, and support them as they use violence to achieve what they think is their entitlement, can then turn round and insist that the UK knows best for the minority, and voiceless, group which is the Scottish people.

    Double standards?
     
  5. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    The thing is you made a big thing of the writer of the letter being English while ignoring him owning a PR company. It shows where your priorities lie.

    Just as you don't seem to understand why someone would stand up for the rights of ethnic minorities.

    It's the Nationalist mentality I'm opposed to and history shows why.
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    back to your British Nationalism again are you?

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/inde...ionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation
     
  7. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    You haven't been paying attention again have you.

    I'm opposed to all Nationalism, including the Nationalists who say "our Nationalism isn't really Nationalism".

    Which, let's face it, is all of them.
     
  8. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    Given that the SNP was formed in 1934 from a merger of the National Party of Scotland and the Scottish Party....what else do you suggest they could have called the new party?

    Nothing wrong with Nationalism. Nationalism can have many shades. The nationalism Hitler promoted was a combination of national purity and fascism..the nationalism you promote is territorial nationalism.....and Scottish (and Welsh) nationalism is left of centre civic nationalism. The nationalism espoused by the BNP is more akin to Hitler's version than the nationalism of the Scots and Welsh.

    What is your alternative to nation states........one world government?
     
  9. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    Ah so Scottish Nationalism is more like the Nationalism of Stalin than Hitler, great.

    Hitler didn't like Gypsies either you know.

    I have never said I was opposed to nation states, Britain is a nation state.

    What I am against is primitive tribal instinct being used by the few to manipulate the many.
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is a certain clue that you live nowhere near Scotland and have no knowledge of what the issue of Independence is about.

    The SNP itself gets votes from people disgusted with all the Westminster Parties, Votes came not because they were voting for nationalist Party but because they were voting for the party which offered the best opportunities towards Scotland and a party which gets strong support from our Muslim population making your point nothing but lies.

    http://www.gerryhassan.com/blog/the...dependistas-and-anti-independistas/#more-2148

    If you are referring to Dale Farm gypsies, they went against the law and were treaty just like anyone else would except it cost millions of pounds to evict those who needed to be. I am all for minority rights and will support such for Scottish travellers, We had a couple of programs on the last years which I doubt you will have seen in England. I understand Dale farm people were offered alternative accommodation. What the heck Hitler has to do with English Government enforcing it's law has me at a loss? Dale farm was an English issue and dealt with by the law. Why are you comparing English Law to Hitler?

    No, Britain is a union of 3 Nations, Wales, England and Scotland. If one of them decides the Union is not in their best interest, then they of course have the right to change that using the democratic system.
     
  11. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    No, just shades of grey in terms of extent of the upper lip curl. Nationalism assuredly encourages insular thinking, emotionality that encourages skewed result and economic disaster.

    Scotland missed the boat. Her raw materials are on the wane. She will be increasingly reliant on skewing regional policy in the UK (as she benefits at the expense of the other regions, including Northern England and Wales). I do hope she goes independent (for that very reason), but it wouldn't be the logical choice for the locals! Let's hope nationalism hinders their logic
     
  12. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Ah, you will miss us, Reiver? But don't worry about resources, we will create something out of thin air and run with it, as is our wont.

    It's time Scotland was made responsible for its own affairs and required to act on it. I don't ascribe to the Scotland as a dependent theory, we are not dependent, but there is certainly a good case to be made that people do not create as prolifically if they don't have ownership.

    It would be an huge test if we were suddenly responsible for our own fate and there is a risk of going under, but the country needs it and the character of the people is very hardy. I am content the risk is worth it for the potential benefits it will release and those will not be confined just to this country.
     
  13. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    To me its purely about the rationality of the situation. The nature of european integration allows for further political disintegration. However, the scot's raw material position isn't a positive. Best to stay where she is and take the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of london
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Europe is not a definite.

    I am surprised you have come out with this one. At the moment we give more than we receive and while you are right that the largest amounts of our oil and gas is gone there are still plenty left. We are also investing in Green energy hoping to become a world leader and I have heard there are plans to bring back quality industry. Then we have tourism, whiskey and lots of other things to make money. We'll make a few bob for a few years for your looking after your nukes till you move them.

    A small area knows much more what is needed in that area. Apart from the SE, Scotland currently gives the most to the treasury.

    We will not need to be tied with a radically moving right country like England.

    and for me the icing on the cake is not being tagged onto English foreign policy and wars.
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    This is a red herring. Scotland is broadly in the black. The days of being in credit are gone

    Lots of whine about England? The only hope for the scumbag nationalists
     
  16. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    The SNP supported the war in Libya.
     
  17. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    Wales isn't even a country. I think you may have upset a few Irishmen as well.

    So how come Scotland isn't in the United Nations then? Britain is.
     
  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I never said this. What you have said is well known. However to pretend England is less in the red is not being honest.

    You are just baiting here. I knew you before and you were a friend. Now I see to you I am a scumbag. Your choice. I do not think in 'Nationalist' terms being well aware of the inherent negativity carried by such a term. I simply do not agree with UK policy which is English foreign policy. It goes strongly against my own politics and I will be glad to be shot of it - and if that results in you thinking I am a scumbag, to be honest I have no interest in your vile hatred at all. Bye.
     
  19. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You've misunderstood. I've referred to the nature of regional policy. The Scots do particularly well to the detriment of other regions. .

    I'm merely being honest. My hatred for nationalism is always going to be key. Its always going to be a negative phenomenon. It doesn't take much, for example, to get the anti-English claptrap out of the celts.
     
  20. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Oooooh....but she does......just for devilment...just look at the election results!

    Beautiful........just beautiful......your tory days are numbered!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  21. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    I take on board your feelings......Scottish nationalism and sovereignity, territorial integrity are an athama to you....unless its English nationalism.... ditto I see a fault in your argument even if you don't!

    As for regional policy crap....We are a nation you torys must get used to that, regardless how its going to hurt your thieves! You will be paying they're pound of flesh...not us!

    Bollocks! Englsih Nationalism is as good as ours! Only we want no part of your benefits...we will look after our own, your benfits have cost the Scottish nation dearly........ for three hundred years!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  22. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    I looked at the election results, they say only half the electorate bothered voting and of those that did the majority voted against the SNP.

    I think it's a safe bet that of the minority that did vote SNP it wasn't a vote in favour of independence it was a vote against Labour.

    So as how you look at it, no, she doesn't talk for the majority of Scots.
     
  23. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    What on earth are you rambling on about? I don't give a toss if the scots decide to pretned darien never happened.

    That Scotland has warped regional policy to the detriment of other british regions is just matter of fact.

    All nationalism is arse
     
  24. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah the Barnett formula again. London and NI receives more than us. We give back more than we receive. Which country was disseminated in the '80's causing her people to have to either emigrate or go on the dole, destroying whole communities. Which country was it that was used to test the Poll Tax?

    These are the issues which caused Scotland to move away and if you do not see that there is a massive difference with Scotland being centre left and England being way past the centre right and just call it Nationalism then you are just trying to slam a slogan on something to degrade the people there and not addressing the issues.

    Regarding what you began with, you appeared to be saying the old one that Scotland would not managed on her own. That is what surprised me because of your economic know how. You also keep shifting the goal posts of what you are saying here each time you post.


    No, you equalling the desire for independence with Nationalism is the key for you and this is a tactic used by people who simply want to create hate around the issue rather than deal with what are in reality the issues but instead promote insults back and forth. What you don't realise is that 'Nationalism' is not the thing here. Heck at the beginning of discussions I was listening to people on boards suggesting eventually we would probably be two countries cut about half way down with the North of England in the Scottish area. You will have noted on the forum both fredc and Romando being negative towards people in the North of England. The only reason why independence is genuinely a possibility is because of political issues and that does bring in England because it is England who has moved so far to the right, be that on it's economics or military ways and in that way you cannot get away from talking about England. It simply is not NI or Wales.

    The UK is currently the 4th most unequal country in the developed world and research suggests it will soon be the first.

    Look at where Scotland has moved away. We are keeping our NHS, you are losing yours. We have free tuition and grants for those attending college you do not. You are intending to drop pay in your poorer areas and we are raising our Public sector's to have a 'living wage of £7.20. You are even considering privatising your police and to use rubber bullets and even live ones to be fired at your citizens when on marches. You want to get out of EU human rights. Your citizens have already rioted. Forgive me if I notice, as I did that England was moving further and further to the right. That was reality, not some negative Nationalism. It might help if you also understood that Scottish Nationalism has never had any equation with right wing xenophobia nationalism but has been about Home Rule and getting a decent deal for her people. Of all the countries in the world we have lost more to emigration and that has not been because investment was put into this country to create opportunities for our children. That is what we want to do now.

    Now I would have, less so since the hate I have encountered when discussing Independence, but before that I would have preferred some link some continuity for our past. The thing is for me, it could not be defence and foreign relations, and yes that too is England. Look at the no's. It is England who votes in the people who still want to be imperial masters of some sort. The only way this would not be the case would be if the UK were run on a Federal Level and on that Level England, Scotland, Wales and NI had an equal voice in foreign affairs. I saw someone write this when talk of Independence first came out and thought - what the heck, but when I hear people like you shouting Nationalists Scumbags because people mention it is English foreign policy they want away from, the reality is that the way things are set up it is English foreign Policy and I believe Scotland's would be very different. Scotland originally wanted a Federal Union because she knew what would happen with such few people in Parliament would be as happened that her interests would not be given priority. Only a Federal State can give the smaller countries of the UK an Equal voice. So no it was not Nationalism which made me speak of England going far right and not liking England's foreign policy, it was reality.

    Scotland has moved in a very different direction to England. Reiver.
     
  25. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    This is nonsense. Take the period from 1982 to 2005, Scottish per capita budget allocation was 17% higher than the UK. Despite changes in regional policy needs, there is also no statistically significant pattern of increases or decreases (ensuring that the real victims are the likes of Wales)

    I support the end of the Union. My decision is based on the costs and benefits of that nation state. The costs are focused on the costs of delivering public goods when faced with a heterogeneous population. The benefits are focused on the size of the domestic market, allowing the likes of economies of scale gains for individual enterprise. Given globalisation these benefits have substantially reduced. Its therefore rational to shift towards smaller nations.

    But let's not kid ourselves. The Scots are dominated by a "Rob Roy wasn't a murderous thug" nationalism that almost always leads to a small minded anti-Englishness. As a "reiver" who ultimately has a history in both countries I don't play pretend!
     
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