Scots Begin Struggle For Independence:

You hate Scotland, accepted. You call everyone interested in Independence Nationalist scumbags totally unaware that many people are interested in Independence who have never been Nationalists in their lives and I am one of them - but to you I am a Nationalist scumbag. You just write from a deep hatred, not from reality.

The SNP were voted in by an overall majority by the Scottish people at the last election because thy were felt to give good Governance. Tories showed their contempt for Scotland then Labour forsook it's principles and the LibDems just sold themselves. The Scot Nats on the other hand worked for the people of Scotland and are voted for by Scottish people because they do a good job despite having the term Nationalist in their name. Independence however is totally different to Nationalism. We have moved far away from England and are moving further and further away. Independence is a definite because we are politically so different, the question is simply the timing. I believe it is to the interest of Scotland to move sooner rather than later but we have already moved so far away from Westminster that I believe it is inevitable.

A celtic supporter on a celtic forum put it well. Independence is what we need but the SNP, who many of them do not support, is the vehicle not the destination. There website has a regular 2/3rd's in favour of Independence despite not being Scottish Nationalists. The desire for Independence and a Nationalist viewpoint are not one and the same thing - though a desire for Independence without question will be based on what is best for Scotland and her people.

You go worse, you declare that those wanting Independence are the same as the EDL when there is zero relationship only illustrating your total lack of knowledge about not only Independence but even Nationalism, which you wrongly declare the whole issue of independence is based on.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...RPohR9&sig=AHIEtbSlGV2cct3dV_Z-ouSEBNoEVQJRxw

You will also find from the above argument that prejudice against Scottish people is far higher in England than in Scottish towards English, as shown by your own hatred displayed here.

The SNP has none of the ethnic hatred which the EDL is based on and has gone further than any party to create laws against any kind of prejudice based on race, religion sexuality and so on.

<<<Mod Edit: Personal Attack Removed>>>

 

Why would I hate a beautiful country? You're not different to the other nationalist, working from a script in order to ignore economic rationality. My hatred for nationalism just includes the Scottish nationalists as they are no different to the English flag waving cretins. We get the same weasel words about them being left wing, but you'll note that the BNP also try and hijack left wing policies in order to try and con the workers. "Yes" the SNP will be able to con folk; "no" will they be able to improve the economic well-being of the working class.

As I've already shown (with scholarly research too), its possible to support disintegration without being duped by the nationalistic filth.

 

There you go again, stereotyping everyone to fit your fantasy. Same mentality as the Nazi's with the Jews or how the new far right treat Muslim's don't you think. It is the mirror you should be looking at. Not that there is anything wrong with anyone who is an SNP member, as I have aptly shown you the SNP is a liberal/civil Nationalist party. It is the party which around half of the Scottish people, including myself voted for at the last election and it's support is rising. To pretend you can demonise and call scumbags everyone who votes for the SNP when it is the government of Scotland voted for by the people and a popular one at that and not be showing hatred for the people of Scotland in general, is complete dishonesty and/or delusion. You show yourself to just have decided something and to hold onto it despite any evidence given to you and to have an all enveloping hate and delusion only seen extremists - you are the extremist Reiver, no one else.

but this is just a fantasy coming from your irrational hatred and inability to research or read what is provided for you.

I only notice that the BNP try to get the Unionist vote http://newsnetscotland.com/index.ph...sts-ape-language-of-anti-independence-parties

Your economics are refuted. Not only that they came from 2000. They are refuted by facts shown. You should get out of this discussion while you have any credibility left and I say that as someone who used to respect you.

 

A final comment...

Nationalism- whilst we can make the civil/superficial/insular distinctions- leads to a 'common' deficiency: 'group thought' where the victim would have to pick up the Oxford English Dictionary to remind them what individualism means. We've seen the consequences on here where the nationalist, confronted by something not mentioned in the script, has to try and warp and skew in order to grunt response. Thus, the first drone argument was- whilst I present a non-nationalist argument for political disintegration (essentially through the consequences of globalisation and multilateralism)- I'm called a Unionist. That of course makes no sense! The second drone argument was awfully similar in its illogical nature. Attacking nationalism in general I'm then accused of being anti-Scottish. Again, attempting to use nationalist charge against an anti-nationalist is cretinous. I will be honest though and admit that the closest I did get to hating a country is Luxembourg. There's nothing there after alll (is the steel works still there as that was the most exciting thing there!). However, even then, there's plenty of fun to be had: from the Portuguese bars to the horse slab pizzas.

Nationalism group thought will assuredly hurt the Scottish people. We've already seen one of tthe drone arguments actively attack economic rationality. Its easy for jingoism to be used to herd the knuckkle draggers in support of irrational policy. God help em!

 

LoL what a diatribe of ignorance, bigotry, stupidity and illogical nonsense.

 

Oh please, educate yourself on civic nationalism

https://www.msu.edu/user/hillrr/161lec16.htm?iframe=true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism

 

I think that you're wrong (yes, I said it). I hate Scottish nationalism too (well, I hate nationalism in its very nature). Yes, I am English. No I do not hate Scotland. I've been in a relationship with a Scotsman for almost 3 years now, hopefully some day we'll get married- that was just to prove a point, also, why would I be going to university in Scotland if I hated it here? Before you start making accusations.

Now, I hate to be the whiney one crying 'victim' here, but I think that the Nationalism have boosted anglophobia dramatically; it's in their best interests, if you think about it. I have definitely noticed it here- there's really not so much of an anti-scottish feeling in England, believe me. On the other hand, I have a friend who's been here a lot longer than I have. Her parents are Scottish, but, because she's lived in England so long, she sounds English. She was bullied a lot for her English accent at school, even pushed down flights of stairs... why? Because of the way she sounds. I'm not saying ALL supporters of the SNP are like this, far from it, but the ones who are are rabid supporters. I'm not even going to go into the main reasons I'm opposed to 'independence' (it takes too long, and I have stuff that I need to do).
Just thought I'd throw this out there, god knows you won't listen- but hey ho, I'm trying.
love
xxx

 

where is the surprise? This is a debate site.

Your choice.

Then you hate people feeling good to be British, French or American. You hate most of the world and you failed to read the information which was provided.

so?

Ok. You think there is a need to say this?

You appear to be the one giving inverted accusations based on nothing. What makes you feel that saying the equivalent of I have a Jewish friend means anything except you have a Jewish friend?

No I don't agree with you at all. The SNP has been harder on discrimination than any other party and hatred towards someone because they are English is treated as a racial crime.

Ah conspiracy theories now! What would be in the interest of a civic nationalist party to deliberately encourage hatred of ten percent of it's population? You think we are going to round them all up and put them in camps?

Well, not much one can say to this anonymous statement.

Well given that I spent about 25 years of my working life in England, I will be aware of the situation there myself. Having spent even more in Scotland I am also aware of the situation here.

how would I know. Bullies? People didn't like her?

I would think that was extremely unlikely unless as I said she either had trouble with bullies or they didn't like her for some other reason and chose to use her being English as the reason. My best bet is bullies.

I doubt that there would be any relationship between SNP supporters and this behaviour. The SNP has had zero tolerance for this sort of thing.

I'll tell you what you are doing here. You are doing the exact same as you are projecting others did to your friend. You claim they bullied her simply because she was English. Now with zero evidence you are claiming that people who bullied your friend are members of the SNP. This is deep prejudice.

why bother when you can just rely on stereotype prejudice? Much easier that way. Means nothing alas.

Oh, it takes too long to think of real reasons but .....I am not sure why I answered this?????

What is there to listen to. A hearsay story of bullying which you use to stereotype the SNP. You should go and see a counsellor about this rather than bring it to a debate forum.

 

Soupypeas
And there is no evidence of anti Scottish behaviour in England. ????? Aye Right. LoL. What a ridiculous post.

 

If it's so ridiculous, NAME SOME.
Frankly, there ISN'T.
All the anti-English crap is getting out of hand, and just saying "The same in England" without any evidence whatsoever is typical of your type.
How about trying to stop English students getting the same benefits as Scots in Scotland, while Westminster subsidises your lot down here ?
Not least the "Barratt law" or whatever the (*)(*)(*)(*) things called.
That should END.
And NOW

 

I fel sure there is a law against that .
Regardless , what about the children?
They will be of a different colour and speak strangely . Isn't that cruelty and neglect?
It needs thinking through imho .

 

Oh where to begin. You really have picked out every last sentence individually, haven't you? Well, she's a nice person, and I trust what she says, apparently there were also things that they were saying that were anglophobic (she told me this a long time ago, and I can't remember). Also, I said that NOT all SNP supporters are like this, but yes, it is a characteristically nationalist trait to project hatred onto someone else for nationality reasons. Salmond DOES seem to stir this, with all his Westminster statements (I don't like the Tories either, but they're not going to be in power for long). The SNP is hard on discrimination? Really?
With some of the things that people say? I find this very hard to believe- even if they are in principle, they've not been very good at reinforcing it.
Also, I said nothing of a conspiracy- It IS in their best interests, they want to break AWAY from England. And somehow, if you're against independence, you're automatically labeled as 'anti-scottish', even if you ARE Scottish; this was the reason I felt the need to clarify this.
Apart from picking apart every individual sentence you can twist, you're really not making much sense.

 

The Scottish government doesn't propose holding the referendum for more than two years and we still don't know what the question will be.

 

Aye .... maybe two years...but it will be worth waiting and worth the asking....and all to your detriment of your perochial outlook.

But just look at your advantages...you get two more years harping on about the barnett formula, and the charity your peasants north of the border don't deserve.

But from our eyes...its the total reverse!
Richer in the wait!

Regards
Highlander

 

Do you have a vote in Scotland?

If so, it will all become clear nearer the time...there is still a long time to go.

If not.what does it have to do with you anyway?

 

I don't have a vote in Scotland, and I'll assume that was a serious question.

Barnett formula? Oil related issues? Scottish MPs voting on legislation affecting only English constituencies? I have a daughter at a Scottish uni and if you hold the referendum soon she'll get free tuition fees if it's a yes vote, and Scotland would be our nearest neighbour so if it doesn't work out for you we will suffer too, and of course listening to Scots Nats tell everyone how hard done by by the English they are for the next two years. It has quite a lot to do with the English.

 

What a pointless thread.
Scotland is about as likely to be independent as the national team are to qualify for a major tournament.
Anyway what currency are the new independent Scots going to use?
The Euro I think not, or the pound and have no control over monetary policy, which would be set for a totally different English economy. Where have we heard about different economies struggling to use the same currency, any one?!?!?!
Welcome to SNP car crash economics. Has anyone read the SNP manifesto it's like 15 pages full of sentences starting "If Westminster this..." and "If we had more that..." Total Mickey Mouse party, might as well vote Green or UKIP, one track party, totally unfit to run a country.

 

You're obviously unaware of how the British political system works or you'd know the Scottish Parliament's powers are extremely limited.
How can you be debating about Scottish independence if you don't understand that the SNP cannot be governing Scotland, Westminster governs Scotland - hence the point of independence and the thread? The Scottish Executives powers are too limited to describe them as 'Governing Scotland' maybe you should read up on the subject before claiming others posts as pointless.

 

Please remember to discuss the thread topic itself, and not to aim personal comments towards each other. This forum has rules against personal attacks - please remember to comply with them.

thank you,
Cenydd
Site Moderator

 

It was a serious question. It would lend to the debate if you had actually intimated your thoughts on some of the above and not just produced the usual pointless snide one liner saying nothing that seems to be all that Unionists ever produce. If you had , then I probably wouldn't have been so blunt.

What about the Barnett Formula and Oil related issues. With Independence both will be irrelevant to the rUK. And without Independence, we will be where we are now.

Only Unionist Scottish MPs vote on English only issues....were you not aware of that? They think they are entitled to do that because it is a Union, and they vote in the Union Parliament. The way to stop that is for England to get devolution themselves, and leave Westminster to be the UK Parliament.

How will she get free tuition fees if it is a yes vote soon? Genuine question. What does she know that I don't?

Afraid if she won't get free tuition fees if we wait till 2014, then she won't get free tuition fees, because even Cameron seems now to have stopped ranting about wanting to set the referendum date.

Why would you suffer if things don't work out for us? Do you suffer if your next door neighbour gets problems in her life?

If we give you some history of the Union and its effect on Scotland, that is an attempt to educate you all..because, going by the history I learned at school, which was almost predominantly English history and started with the Anglo-Saxons...Scotland, in the English scheme of things, is almost non-existent.

Nope.....it has nothing to do with the English, except for those who have chosen to live in Scotland and will have a vote in the referendum....just as it has nothing to do with the Scots who have chosen to live outside Scotland and no longer have a vote here.

 

OK then - if the Scots are taking the moronic line that THIS poster is taking, then why do YOU have a say in the Westminster Government ?
It has everything to do with us south of the border as we seem to be propping up their "self serving government" with ENGLISH money in the main.
You want to go your own way ?
Nothing wrong with that.
But the money supply from the south should stop completely too.

 

Would you believe because we were subjected to a hostile takeover by England to form the Union in 1707. On Union, what was the English Parliament ceased to exist, and it became the Parliament of the Union. And as there is NO English Parliament, because England didn't ask for one.....they are stuck with Scottish Unionist MPS exercising their legal entitlement to vote on everything which goes through the Union Parliament...even if it has no impact on Scotland.

Way to sort that would be to have your own Parliament, wouldn't it.....or is that too obvious for you?

SNP MPs do not vote on legislation which will only effect England. And all MPs in the UK Parliament , including Scottish MPs, who otherwise don't get a vote on legislation going through Holyrood get a vote via the Sewell convention..if the Scottish Parliament says they can.

It has nothing to do with you south of the border what we decide to vote north of it. It will only have something to do with you once we decide.

What is the point in talking to someone who still maintains, despite all the evidence to the contrary that England subsidises Scotland? There is certainly a difference in the levels of public spending between many regions of England and the country of Scotland. But that is probably because we are much bigger in area, have a need for more infrastructure etc..and are still catching up on the last 300 years of neglect by successive UK Governments. Incidentally, the level of public spending in Northern Ireland and London is higher per head than it is in Scotland.....and in London a fair skelp more if you include the hidden stuff like the disproportionate amount of MOD financial input to London....plus the financial input by all UK taxpayers into the London Olympics and the upgrade to London's Privatised Water and Sewage system, for example.

We will be happy to have the money supply from the South removed...how is the rUK going to manage without all the oil revenues, given even with 100% of the revenues, the UK is £1 trillion plus in the red...and we'd only be taking an 8.4% share of it away with us. It's not just our money that would be being stopped...what you get from us will as well.....won't it?

 

Reply worded with forum rules "... and not to aim personal comments towards each other. This forum has rules against personal attacks - please remember to comply with them" in mind.

What about the Barnett formula? You will know everyone pays into the same centralised pot, but the Scots get a lot more from it than anyone else (apart from the Northern Irish). That's one reason why Scotland's secession from the Union would suit the English. Oil issues ... the issue of "Scottish" oil has to be decided. Given that the oil is actually in UK waters, how much of it would be Scotland's is something the lawyers will argue about. It isn't even a question until Salmond actually asks the Scots whether they want to leave the union. He might not even ask, "Devo Plus" seems to be gaining favour with the SNP, but at least we'd likely see the end of the Barnett formula with that. I have no idea why Cameron does what he does and I wonder whether he even knows himself.

Scottish MPs representing Scottish constituencies voting on English only issues is a concern for the English. It doesn't make a difference to us whether those MPs are unionists or separatists.

Uni fees ... Scottish students get free tuition, but English students are charged fees because Scotland is allowed to charge them whilst still being is required to give other EU students free tuition, so if Scotland leaves the union it will not be allowed to discriminate against English students any longer. They will be treated as EU students are. (Incredibly, the EU allows the present rules because it regards this as a "domestic" matter between Scotland and England.) I don't know whether you knew that.

We will suffer if it doesn't work out for you because you are our nearest neighbours. It won't do any us any good if you don't do well. We all know what happens when a poor state borders a better off one. Nothing I said was snide and England will no doubt fit in as much as possible with what the Scottish people and Scottish residents want as much as is reasonable, but they need to be asked. It's not as if the SNP hasn't had long enough to make its case.

Sorry you don't like the English expressing our varied opinions on this, but express them we will, so you'll have to get used to it, until you satisfactorily explain why it's nothing to do with us, but even then we still have (a kind of) free speech in in this country so you'll probably still hear what we think.

 

Aye the barnett formula...the one used to explain the charity we have to go cap in hand....... bollocks!

If your so adamant that we are such a burden....why wait for a referendum!

Like all the rest of the degenerates in the French and German Aristocracy they are a parasite on the back of all of us. Do you no think they will do anything to keep the revenue stream they have from Scotland!

If they can murder the likes of Kelly, execute the likes of Jean Charles de Menzes, assist in the genocide of 1.4 million Irais, allow the murder of British people from American drones, do you think for one second they are going to tell you the truth regarding the Barnett formula!
I wont speak of the payment of the corrupt police officers, werrity, bLair Lying to the UN through C Powell, or giving away the English gold.....no thats for you to deal with or not as you see fit!
I shall not mention the back handers, the corrupt financial institutions, the usary which incidentally is illegal in England and Scotland but at present we can do little about it!!
Waken up and smell the death of your democracy south of the border!

Or you could aways come north, you'll at least be treated with civil curtesy, and your children will have the chance of university education for all....Just like that famous english politician (you'd know nothing about as it isn't taught in any education system in the countrys of these islands) who fought for the rights we have at present. Rights the Englishmen fought for, and rights given away in England, freely given away to those same thugs and lying thieves.

\And you want us to do the same???

But we haven't! Thats why we want change.... back to those things that are important to a nation state....you stick to your unionism and all the hypocrisy regarding any semblemnce to that of democracy your forefathers fought and died! You deserve torys if you know no better!

But you have a nice day....ya hear!

Highlander

 

Yes. Arguments are tough Highlander. It's much easier just to degenerate (sic) into a mindless rant of abuse against the aristocrats who you have convinced yourself are running the world.

Where was all the Scottish outrage in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries Highlander, when small nations everywhere were rising up against colonizers and Empires? The year of nationalist revolutions - 1848 - what happened in Scotland? Who was Scotland's Robert Emmet? When Irishmen fought for liberty in 1798, what were Scotsmen doing? When the French Revolution occured in 1789, what happened in Edinburgh? Where was the SNP or anything like it when people were massacred at Peterloo? Tell me about the Scottish Chartists? A handful of lonely voices.

Let's see. What were the Scots doing when everyone else demanded liberty? Well they were the leading mass of people that opposed liberty. They formed the generals and the troops of the armies of soldiers or colonizers that denied people freedom. Even back to the seventeenth century it was Scotsmen who executed the scumbag Cromwell's order of "to Hell or Connaught". It was Scots who murdered and disposessd Irish Catholics. Bought over and over again, in every generation, for English gold the history of the Scotsman is the history of an occupier, an exploiter, a mercenary enriching himself on the misery of others. At the heyday of Empire Scotsmen were happy to dominate as pioneers and innovators for Britain, not Scotland. The roads of Hong Kong are littered with Scottish names as the mansions in Scotland are built on the misery of Chinese opium addicts.

So why no Scottish nationalism until the last two generations? The decline of Empire brought the decline of Scottish wealth. Let's remember that the Conservative and Unionist Party used to doinate Scotland. Now Scotland, like the Industrial North of England faces a structural economic quagmire. Populist politicians preaching anti-English xenophobia, capitalize on this. At a time when what is needed in Europe is unity, these people preach isolation.

When, two hundred years ago, nationalism represented the aspiration for self determination, freedom from control, freedom of language and culture, and hope for oppressed and expolited creatures, Scotland and Scottish people stood on the side of the oppressors. Now today nationalism represents suspicion, hatred, fear, jealousy, ignorance and isolationism, and we get a few malcontent Scots like snake-oil salesmen, promising an illusory paradise to a deserate people.

English people are indifferent to a union with Scotland. Britain is a world power, even if it is declining. Scotland is as important on the world's stage as Norway is. Let them choose irrelevance if they wish. But if there is going to be a break, let's make it a clean one, where they truly have to stand up for themselves.

Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae famed in martial story!
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
And Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

Plus ca change....