Scots Begin Struggle For Independence:

Because you are so easy to manipulate. You invariably want the last word irrespective of the circumstances. But I guess this thread will be the exception, Albert.

 

Something bothering you Beev?

 

It's a big step. I think a lot of people will want it slowly and carefully done. We all know how devious English politicians are, the devil is in the detail.

As to sterling, if that is economically more beneficial then by all means. If it's not, I'm sure the decision will change.

You make a lot of assumptions there, Russia and in particular Saint Petersburg for some reason I have an urge to see. Greece and Italy I've done and a few places in Italy within the past year. It was a mess, I don't care how many people say it's a lovely place, it's a dump in the areas we saw to the degree that I didn't want to get off the train and then didn't want to get off the bus. But it was a tourist thing, not scrutiny of local politics or business. Other than hearing the area is a filthy pit because of the scrapping of an EU subsidy which created a north/south economic divide, I didn't dig that deep.

Greece was very poor, which is a shame as the people were very genuine. I assume it is reverting to that state of poverty. It is not to everyone's taste, however, to live in a capitalist dream. Diversity is more interesting and this consumer crap is very restricting of personal freedom. If you live in a system as interfering and over controlled as UK, what actual freedom is there? Everything you do in day to day life is already under some kind of restriction by some fecker in local government, to the extent it is restrictive of business. Unless you're a total gangster, in which case a whack with a two by four or a brown envelope can apparently open any door.

Regarding the latter, I don't suppose that is any different in less affluent society. And this society is attacking the weak and the poor directly, so who is the stronger economy supporting?

Not just tourists either...it can happen to people on forums.

That clip is from Zulu (I always have to watch that when it's on, I'm obsessed by it).

These things did happen at Culloden, but the "English" force there contained many Scots. It was a civil war. This nonsense about the English being the victor is crap, it was brother against brother. The rest is spin.

I was in Corsica recently and it's tied to France but has been Italian also. I think it would prefer to be Corsican and in the EU, I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be done. They are plainly already taking control of as much of their own government as they possibly can extract. The Basques are the same, but I've heard from some that the Spanish people don't want to lose that region and there are all kinds of other regions which may kick off if they do. I suppose the answer is that the people within the region should make their own choice. Anything else is oppressive.

Oi...the smaller tribe sometimes moves in with the bigger one to get peace from interference from the larger bully tribe.

 

Idle jottings .
I have been lucky to visit Russia and Ukraine on many occasions and never on a package or following only the Tourist trail .
Outside of the obvious , it is a dump . Falling to pieces or dying on its feet --- the wooden villages of starving people .Lack of electricity , hot water etc . Tragic because the people are tremendous .
A week ago I had just left Sicily and Palermo has had the guts ripped from it
Falling to bits and the shops with 70% sales everywhere -- clothing shabby and cheap compared to twenty years ago . Young people unemployment at 50% . Ouch .
We have problems , but so far we have been so fortunate in comparison

 

That I memories, nobody asked to(?) the scots if they wont to move in the big "English" tribu.

 

Alex Salmond has a funny idea of what independence means. First it was "independence in Europe" now it's independence but with another country's currency. The UK can't stop Scotland using sterling, but it doesn't have to set interest rates to suit Scotland's economy any more than Germany set interest rates to suit Southern European economies.

 

I couldn't agree more. You'll understand why we want a referendum on EU membership.

 

So you won't object when the English parliament, which doesn't have a single Conservative MP north of the border, seals up all the roads and blows up all the bridges, just to ensure they are totally independent from Scotland?

 

You don't have what it takes to ruin my day. I don't have to apologise to you or anyone else for anything, so take the chip on your shoulder and go and play somewhere else.

 

With me, you're preaching to the converted.

 

Delighted. I'd be delighted to never have anything to do with England ever again in any way whatsoever. Don't be offended, it's not that I don't like English people. There is a different culture and I would like to see this one free to follow the very different path it leans toward.

But they won't seal the roads for many reasons. Frexample, apart from Salmond's intent to remain part of the EU and therefore normal EU borders will apply, English politicians are interferons. And if oil is Scottish and any remains, they have invaded countries for less so why would they allow links to be severed? Plus they will be over a barrel regarding location of the nuclear deterrent for some years until an alternative can be built and this seems to be quite a serious issue, to the extent it can be used as political leverage. With regard to your comment, that is another tie which will have to be maintained for some time despite the anti-nuclear SNP aim.

I wouldn't really object to England having a vote in the referendum. You could say it's a bit redundant if Scotland votes against independence. Or as I have said before, why should they determine Scotland's future, they're not Scots. Residents only vote, is how they're viewing it at the moment. However, it will affect England. Even if Scotland votes against, if the English have been so convinced by Alex Salmond's political manipulations that they believe Scotland is a drain on their economy, then why would they not be equally entitled to vote to severe the union in just the same way Scotland can?

It's a union. We're not some oppressed people trying to escape a dictator, contrary to popular myth. England is tied into the union as we are. It's entirely within their rights to decide it's not beneficial to England and demand a vote on it.

 

And you envisage that disintegration for ex-UK Scotland? Maybe, but it's heading directly that way as it is. There are no jobs here and the public sector cuts are going to make that hugely worse. The town where I used to work was an industrial hub, Thatcher let it go into managed decline and there is nothing now. The UK has no ideas on how to regenerate Scotland. Scotland is not a priority at that table and you can't blame them for focusing on the most populated areas, but this area was most populated until the managed decline and it's time we had ability to self-govern and direct our own resources into our own economy as our own priority, not to be thrown crumbs piece-meal by people who view London as the priority and everywhere else as annoying.

We have waited a long time for this and Salmond is the right man for the job. He is like Nelson Mandela, having had years and even generations to plan and plan. When that gate goes up, he will know exactly where to fire the arrows into the economy to change this country.

Salmond's idea of independence is revolutionary to some, but he doesn't care what people think. He is not stupidly tied to idealistic concepts of nationalism. It is not about emotional nationalistic ideals as many people here seem to think. He is tied to actually doing what is best for this country.

This shocking refusal to blindly follow public expectations of narrow nationalism is what will convince the Scottish people. He is going to do what is best for Scotland regardless of the media and regardless of opinion in any other country. If that means using sterling for a while, he will. If that changes, he will change policy to what is best for the country.

As to England setting interest rates to suit Scotland, I am sure there is a risk of England deliberately deploying tactics which assist England's economic recovery at the expense of neighbouring countries. That has been known to happen before in economics and it is certainly not beneath England in times like these. I am also sure SNP will not rely on the GBP as the only alternative.

 

How many Scottish Members of Parliament are there at Westminster? Not just representing Scotland but also England?

How many English MP's are there in Scotland, representing England?

 

I don't know whether Salmond cares what people think or not. His idea of independence isn't what I'd call revolutionary. I'd say it was emotionalism over reason. It is however important to those of us on this side of the border that Scotland prospers. It would not be good for England any other way.

Who said anything about narrow nationalism? How can using sterling and dealing with interest rates set to suit the English economy be what's best for Scotland? We already know monetary union does not work without fiscal union.

Excuse me, but why should the UK government set rates to suit anyone else's economy? If you separate from the UK, you can hardly complain if the UK then doesn't heed Scottish concerns much. Why should any independent country set interest rates to suit neighbouring countries at the expense of its own? Scotland wants a much greater degree of socialism than England, so the interest rates set in London will not suit Scotland (they don't really even suit the North of England, let alone Scotland.) And can Scotland accept two currencies at the same time? Has such a plan been put forward? Which other currency is a candidate?

 

I'm well aware we have devolved powers English politicians don't influence, while England's national issues can be influenced by Scottish MPs and I can only say Who cares?

If England has an issue with it, they can sort it out. I'm not English. Scotland suffered plenty of inequal representation in Westminster for centuries, the union couldn't be dissolved under any circumstances because it held benefits which couldn't actually be described (because they don't exist). Now it's on the other foot, by their own hand (because they were apparently given various political options and voted on their local setup) for the first time things appear weighted to disadvantage England and do they suffer it for 3 centuries because of invisible benefits?

Not bloody likely. They immediately want out of the union.

The irony can only make me laugh, but revenge is not enough to want my country to stay in the UK with England.

 

Your mask is slipping. It's not revolutionary, it just seems to have escaped your notice (and you've just confirmed this in your post) that Salmond is logic-based. Some people regarding this topic, assume there is no logic in dissolving UK and that all Scots who support the idea, do so purely because they hate the English.

Scotland has in fact long moved past that. People are interested in what is good for the country and Salmond is almost entirely directed by that, not by emotive nationalism.

It's been good for England to destroy the Scottish economy during the union, never mind post.

Me. Did you not see it?

If I'd said it was best for Scotland, I might have an answer. As I didn't, I don't. But if it ever is beneficial, I'm sure we won't care if it's English Sterling (it wouldn't be GBP, would it, if GB is extinct) or Moroccan dirhams. It has no emotional attachment or otherwise to me, business is business.

Sigh...yet again, I didn't say they should. I said they won't. Honestly, if you want to discuss points I make, I'm up for it.

Bla bla bla as above

Scotland has traditionally been more socialist leaning than England, but we have shared the same political system irrespective of that. What makes you think we can't arrange our economic affairs to benefit both, if that would benefit both?

England will do nothing for Scotland and everything for England. If our interests coincide, it's possible we will work together. Otherwise we won't. I don't have a difficulty with this concept. It's straightforward. And we can't really be any more disadvantaged than we already are by the union, despite protestations to the contrary. It hasn't protected us from economic disaster. Were we not part of UK, we would not have dreamed of becoming responsible for the huge amounts of debt now looming over UK. That is the English disease, over ambition.

You know everything, why don't you tell me.

 

I am sure we will still have a soft spot for the Scotties . Even I feed my Cat and check that he still has four legs .
But instead of hating St Maggie , you should have baptised yourselves in her inspiration !!!
Stop sitting on your arr ses and whining .Get out there and find niche business and industrial spots for financial independence
Ultimately that's what Meryl did --- sorry, Margaret --when she said to the UK --- this island is dead unless it re-invents itself .
Madonna was listening and she then got it right along with Elton .

 

Eh, we don't need your economic guidance there Raymondo. We are already en route. And the latest poll shows 51% of Scots in favour, thanks to your egomaniac bullying politicians down there...

 

Just feel free to ask for any help ---letters to Saint Ray of Sunshine will always find me .
It's like Foxes in the back garden .
Nice until you smell them . And so much better when they are gone .

 

If you run into me along the coast of California you won't be able to escape me. Arguing with me plays into my hands. You don't know how to work the system here. The cops have my back. I know them. The Sheriff is my buddy. I've chased many British tourists away from the beach, the Redwood forests, Downtown, and even from surf spots. At the surf spots I call on the lokes to get rid of the aliens. Lots of Brits have left in tears.

 

It can happen on forums? Good.

Zulu is never shown here any more. It is politically incorrect.

Most Highland clans and some lowlanders fought for Bonnie Prince Charlie. The Scots who fought for the British were traitors.

 

Enlightened is probably more accurate .

 

An English blockade of the Scottish coast with the 1050 rowing boats on standby might make you change your mind.

 

Maybe so, maybe no. We'll never know.