Self-awareness

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by yguy, Dec 27, 2014.

  1. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    So much of this stuff is cultural. Both at the 'ethnicity level', and the personal level. For example, if you were to travel back in time 150 years and make a study of two individuals - one a Northern European aristocrat and intellectual, the other a Chinese peasant farmer - you would find almost nothing in common in terms of both your understanding of 'self-awareness', and attitude to same. The former would very probably agree with much of what you say, or at least recognise what you are saying. The latter would be unlikely to be capable of even conceptualising the idea of it. It would be utterly alien.

    The point being: how would you then measure 'self-awareness'? The lack of concept of same in the peasant farmer is not in any way a measure of his own lack. It's a measure of your inability to factor in the wide variance in ideas on self.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  2. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    So, to raise a point you refused to address in a previous post of mine - according to you people are still 'self aware' when they are asleep or in a coma or for that matter experiencing great physical or emotional trauma. A mother identifying the body of a child in a morgue is, at that instant consciously aware of herself as a unique individual, separate from all other people?

    Self awareness is a constant that is not subject to variance or change at any time or in any way independent of he wishes of the person involved.
     
  3. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't know where to begin. How is it even possible for someone (supposedly) so interested in the concept of self awareness be so completely ignorant of the numerous scientific research programs currently being conducted into the question of self awareness in other species.

    So you now admit that that self awareness is subject to periodic changes in level and not a fixed condition as you postulated earlier.

    So not only do I have no idea of what self awareness is I am also probably not self aware myself? So arrogance and insult seem to be your default responses to opposing view points. Interesting, that reveals a lot about you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  4. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that we're entirely on the same page, as that makes as much sense to me as saying my learning to walk was a milestone in my walking ability. I don't walk any better now than I did at whatever age I was when walking became second nature, and neither am I any more self-aware now than I was then.
    Verbatim quote and link, please.
    I have no way of knowing, but either she is or she isn't, and there's nothing in between.
    are all being conducted by people who haven't a clue about self-awareness, and who would serve humanity better as astrologers.
    If being functionally devoid of it constitutes a different level than having it, I never said otherwise.
    Could be, as the condition is hardly uncommon, and your conduct here strongly suggests the affirmative.
     
  5. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    My apologies I went back and checked your argument if I understand it correctly is that self awareness is not a constant as I alluded to but rather 'binary' i.e. you are either self aware or not.

    See my point above. (And unfortunately I do.) My point was that you see 'self awareness' as either there or not. My example partly supports that view, I suppose. But I hold instead that it is a spectrum, dependent in large measure on many life issues and environmental pressures are closing in on us at any particular time. Is the soldier in the heat of combat as self aware than the monastic contemplating his life in prayer and meditation?

    So what then? Now you choose to adopt the intellectual and moral 'high ground' casting aspersions on the work of thousands of researchers you've (presumably) never met, whose work you've never reviewed and without offering so much as the slightest shred of evidence to support your opinion. At the least you need to enunciate clearly and precisely why you hold their work in so much contempt. Or at least appear to.

    Again the implication being that you regard many, if not the majority of people, including myself as not being 'self aware'. I can only presume, in the absence of evidence to the contrary that you hold this view because I and others lacking 'self awareness' disagree with you on topics related to our current discussion. I would note however that no-one in this thread (as far as I can tell) has criticized your self awareness/intelligence, beliefs or opinions in a similar manner.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  6. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    First, if two people are self-aware, it's nonsensical to claim one is more self-aware than the other. Second, I'm aware of no reason to think the heat of combat necessarily compromises self-awareness. Finally, given what passes for prayer or meditation to so many, anyone engaged in either practice may very well be escaping self-awareness.
    The claim that animals have self-awareness implicitly devalues the concept, just as "gay marriage" devalues marriage and "transgenderism" devalues men and women; so these "researchers" serve as generators of propaganda for those whose good pleasure it is to dehumanize mankind.
    I never affirmed that diagnosis, just noted the possibility.
    Yeah, well I ask no quarter; and but for the rules I wouldn't give any either, trust me. So deal.
     
  7. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree given psychologists and researchers have identified degrees of self awareness, principally as identified during the stages of human development growth from infancy to maturation and the existence of drugs, recognized medical conditions, physical exhaustion and emotional trauma.

    Nor do I agrees regarding the possible existence of limited self awareness in animals given the available scientific research. At the least the (presumably) reputable scientists involved in these projects would disagree. Nor do I believe that the human self awareness is cheapened/devalued by the possible existence of less highly developed self awareness in animals. Any more than the existence of the intricate complexities of the human body and mind is cheapened by the existence of similar but different complexities in animals.

    Also as far as I am aware no researcher to date has tried to claim that animal self awareness in any way shape or form matches human self awareness in degree or complexity.

    I also disagree with your contention that myself and other posters might lack self awareness. You argue that human self awareness (all other factors being equal) is a binary proposition, you have it or you don't. All the literature I have ever read in and out of university indicates that a person completely lacking in self awareness would not be able to function socially as human being or communicate effectively and would probably have to be institutionalized. (And no I haven't escaped from my cell and accessed the computer at the nurses station in order to post this - as much as it might comfort you to think so.)

    Lastly 'I ask no quarter'?? what are we all pirates now? Debate on this forum is as far as possible meant to be conducted in a polite and reasoned manner not as a blood sport. You shouldn't have to ask for quarter, within limited it should be expected. If not?? All I can say is .. arrrg :dual:hoist the mainsail.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
    scarlet witch likes this.
  8. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, your preference for the pronouncements of authority figures over independent thought is plenty clear by now.
    Utterly preposterous, as there are plenty of people in high places who present as functionally devoid of self-awareness.
    You've got that part down, at least on a superficial level...
    ...but one outa two is nothing to write home about.
    And I don't, so I don't have a problem. 8)
     
  9. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    The correct term is experts in their fields. Not knowing your profession I assume that outside the boundaries of that profession, whatever it is you take the advice of experts as and when needed. Your illnesses are diagnosed by Doctor, your lawyer provides legal advice and your car is maintained by a trained mechanic. You don't have to take their advice of course but most people do. So when a scientist or doctor qualified in the appropriate field offers an opinion on the topic of self awareness I tend to give it at least some credence/consideration. Expert opinions matter.

    On the other hand if you want to discuss authority figures I suggest a thread on either psychology or Doms and Subs - assuming the latter is permitted. Otherwise just call them what they are recognized as.

    Agreed. But while they may present as such IMO it is still a matter of degree and even then you would have to clinically measure a particular candidate to be sure. A public figure who appears to be arrogant, self opinionated and stupid may not automatically be completely lacking in self awareness. Just significantly less self aware than the average healthy, well adjusted person.

    Again, I am at least attempting to remain courteous. Can you say the same?

    Then the onus is on you to show detail precisely how and why my reasoning is flawed. Anything less is just sniping.

    You might not think so but then you always ask other posters their opinion and get feedback couldn't you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  10. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Not when I know a million times more about the issue under consideration than they do, it isn't.
    And except of necessity, I do not seek advice from any of them. With that in mind, why on Earth would I see any necessity to attend to the opinions of "experts" on the most elementary of human faculties, the understanding of which is accessible with minimal introspection?
    Nothing you've offered justifies that conclusion.
    So where's your respect for "expert opinions" all of a sudden?
    Swell, but I don't know what the hell you think you're accomplishing by repeating it.
    Yes, against a metric contrived by nitwits.
    Of course not, because to those lacking in self-awareness, anyone who is merely confident may appear to be all those things; but the element of subjectivity is easily avoided in such cases as men who insist they are women or vice versa.
    Not just no, Hell no. After all, when one happens to be an unrelenting paragon of wonderfulness, what need is there to try?

    8)
    Like hell it is...
    ...but I've done it anyway, out of the goodness of my cold, cold heart.

    8)
     
  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    And I think on that note I will exit this 'debate'. Firstly and primarily because the arguments are starting to become repetitive. However equally importantly for the following reasons;

    1) Since by you own admission you claim to 'know a million times more about the issue under consideration than they do,' there is simply no point in relying upon in relying on the opinions of Scientists who the rest of society regard as 'expert's in their respective fields. Obviously you no better.

    2) Since, despite claiming my reasoning on certain points of discussion is flawed you consistently decline to explain how or why this is so (whether this is because you can't or won't is irrelevant).

    3) Since you choose to respond to a comment by selectively choosing one word (e.g. Agreed) from a three line post while completely ignoring the rest of the point accompanying that word. And

    4) Since you you won't or can't refer to sources that support your position (I can if required).

    And on that note I shall exit 'stage left.'
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  12. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    lol
     
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    How does a salmon know that it is not a trout? How does an eagle know that it is not a robin? How does a cow know that it is not a sheep? Can any of them see its whole body?
     
  14. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure what you mean here but if logic can prove that proposition A is not true it is same as logic proving that the proposition NOT A is true.
     
  15. Thehumankind

    Thehumankind Well-Known Member

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    Non at all, for most of the time we humans are so busy thinking about other important things to do, not only self meditation.
     

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