Seven hypothesis to explain blood clots from the J&J vaccine

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by CenterField, Dec 5, 2021.

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  1. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Adenovirus-vector vaccines such as the J&J and the Oxford/AstraZeneca (Sputnik V and CanSino are also this kind of vaccine) have very rarely caused severe thrombosis (blood clots) with low platelet count, in some cases fatal, which we call TTS (thrombotic thrombocytopenic syndrome) or more precisely, since TTS can be caused by other agents like heparin, VITT (vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia).

    Someone asked me about this. I don't remember who. Could be @Thedimon or @AmericanNationalist or someone else.

    I found an excellent article that examines the 7 hypothesis that are being considered to explain this adverse reaction.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jth.15485

    It is a complex paper that people like @Bowerbird and @557 will understand, but do look at the figure in section 6, and the 7 subsections of 6, that is, 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 etc.,, which talk about the various hypotheses.

    For our non-specialist members here, I'd like to make a few simple points.

    A. This phenomenon does NOT happen with the mRNA vaccines made by Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech.

    B. Only mechanism 6.3 is related to the spike protein made by the vaccine. However, it's pretty much not likely at all. They included it to be complete. If you read the section, they explain why this is likely not what is happening. Also, it would only be theoretically possible, in the case of production of anomalous soluble spikes produced by a process called alternative splicing, but this only happens when the genetic material in the vaccine is DNA, like it is the case for the adenovirus-vector vaccines. The mRNA vaccines do not use alternative splicing and cannot produce these anomalous soluble spikes. Again, in the unlikely hypothesis that the spike proteins are responsible for the thrombosis, it doesn't happen to the spike proteins made by the mRNA vaccines.

    C. Most other mechanisms have to do with the adenovirus itself, the otherwise benign virus that is being used to carry the vaccine DNA into the cells. We know that the coating of adenoviruses can produce the phenomenon. In the history of medicine there's been similar accidents with therapies that used adenoviruses (again, rarely, but it does happen). The association between adenoviruses and platelet issues has been known for a long time (see for example this paper written in 2004: https://ashpublications.org/blood/a...enovirus-induced-thrombocytopenia-the-role-of )

    D. The 7th mechanism, is that someone would get one of these vaccines and catch Covid-19 right after getting vaccinated (before the vaccine had an opportunity to protect the person, which takes a couple of weeks) and the virus itself would be causing the blood clots. Although the mechanism is different, it highlights what I've been saying: the virus itself is more likely to cause blood clots than the vaccines.

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    Whether or not the non-specialists will find this paper interesting, I don't know. Still, I wanted to make the point of how safe the mRNA vaccines are, regarding blood clots. They don't cause this problem (sure, they can cause other very rare problems, but not this one).

    But yes, those who are concerned about these rare blood clotting adverse reactions to the adenovirus-vector Covid-19 vaccines might want to prefer Moderna or Pfizer over J&J, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V, or CanSino (the last three I listed are not approved for use in the United States but are available in various other countries).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
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  2. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It's 6c
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  3. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is also important to know that now that the vaccines have been distributed by the billions, the current rate of TTS seen in recipients of the adenovirus-vector Covid-19 vaccine sits at 4 in one million.

    For comparison, the odds that you'll be struck by lightning are 2 in one million.

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    The most likely culprit is antibodies produced against PF4. There is the idea now of coming up with a test: if the individual who is a candidate for Covid-19 vaccines tests positive for anti-PF4, then he/she is not offered an adenovirus-vector vaccine, but is given instead a vaccine made with one of the other platforms.
     
  4. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you mean the C I posted above, mentioning that most mechanisms are adenovirus-related rather than spike protein-related?

    Because I believe that the most likely mechanism is 6.4:

    adenovirus binding to PF4 promotes misplaced anti-PF4 antibodies leading to (heparin independent) platelet activation
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  5. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so would taking something like NSKSD help?

    https://www.nsk-sd.info/nsksd-and-thrombosis

    "NSK-SD has also shown to indirectly degrade fibrin by helping increase and activate our body’s natural fibrin-degrading factors such plasmin, tPA, and pro-urokinase. However, NSK-SD does not increase the time it takes for a good blood clot to form in response to a wound."
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  6. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    LOL, of course not. Put down the tinfoil hat, FreshAir. Are you becoming an adept of junk science?

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    No prophylaxis medications are known to prevent the syndrome (stopping these antibodies from activating the platelets), if it will happen. We should avoid aspirin, heparin or low molecular weight heparin (LMWH) anticoagulation in these patients. Earlier protocols included LMWH but now we prefer non-heparin anticoagulation.

    The treatment of VITT once it is triggered, is based on intravenous immunoglobulin to bring down the anti-Platelet Factor 4 antibodies, steroids, and non-heparin anticoagulation with drugs such as argatroban, bivalrudin, Fondaparinux, or Danaparoid. If this fails, plasma exchange.

    VITT is a major medical emergency, especially if it results in CVST (Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis), which kills people (or pulmonary embolism). We don't treat it with vitamin/food store supplements... And no, these supplements wouldn't prevent platelet activation if anti-PF4 is present.

    Anti-PF4 HIT-ELISA tests, fibrinogen, platelet count, D-dimmer, and imaging to detect CVST or other thrombosis locations are essential. We need to differentiate VITT from the more benign ITP (immune thrombocytopenic purpura) which can follow even the mRNA vaccines. These have negative PF4 ELISA. These cases have no thrombosis but have very low platelets and can have bleeding. Treatment is very different: it does also use IVIG, and/or steroids, but we do platelet transfusions if bleeding (while we avoid them in VITT), thrombopoietin agents, and a single dose of vincristine.

    Symptoms of VITT:

    4 to 42 days after an adenovirus vector vaccine. Severe headache. Visual changes. (These two, typical of CVST). Abdominal pain. Nausea and vomiting. Back pain. Shortness of breath. Leg pain or swelling. Petechiae, easy bruising, or bleeding. If you had the J&J and experience a combination of the above, seek emergency medical help immediately.

    90% or more patients respond to treatment. If the condition goes untreated, it will kill you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  7. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    glad your so positive... but who knows
     
  8. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    For me, the blood clot thing was definitely a huge issue due to my own family history of high blood cholestrol. The finding that it came from the adenovirus-carrying vaccine is definitely an eye opener. I and others have indeed cast aspersions against the new MRNA technology, mostly due to it being new(I had also read the early stages of research where mices and other animals injected with MRNA found unfavorable outcomes.) And the vaccine boosters being more demanded as essential, didn't raise confidence unlike if it were a one and done.

    That said, this study does show MRNA to be safer than the alternatives. That is, the fact is, MRNA is the safest vaccine out there. It dissolves within 24 hours and only has the one spike protein, vs the virus's 29 other ingredients.
     
  9. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What I said is scary, but the condition only occurs in 2 of each 1 million people who get an adenovirus vector vaccine (and doesn't occur with mRNA vaccines). Like I said, the virus itself is much more dangerous for blood clotting, which is why these adenovirus vector vaccines got approved anyway, given that the risks are outweighed by the benefits. By the way, it's more frequent with the AstraZeneca vaccine than the J&J.
     
  10. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes, and I was asking if that might help with blood clots, even from the virus itself

    the virus itself is much more likely to give one blood clots
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  11. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, these food store supplements are junk science. Yes, sure, they'll show a number of "scientific papers" in their propaganda web pages, but if you look at who writes up this stuff, it's people with a vested interest. I remember looking up one of the authors; it was the CEO of the company who made the stuff, who didn't hold an MD or a PhD, and the "paper" was published in a trade publication rather than a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal.

    It's not that all supplements are useless, but most are.

    There's a reason why they have to disclose on the bottom of the page "these statements have not been evaluated or endorsed by the FDA. This substance does not intend to treat or prevent any disease."

    You know, do you think that if something actually worked, it wouldn't be in production by one of the Big Pharma corporations, or the other literally thousands of legitimate drug makers, and wouldn't have an FDA approval?
     
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think some supplements work, and I think the reason big pharma doesn't sell them is they can not be patented

    that said, you're right, many do not
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
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  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, yes. Adenovirus-related.

    I base that on the Australian experience, which tends to eliminate the coincidental infection due to our very low case numbers. We have had many clotting episodes residual to Astra Zeneca in the absence of infection.
     
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