Seven MPs leave Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by The Scotsman, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    Almost no-one wants a "Norway Plus".

    Jeremy Corbyn has ruled it out because it recognises the "four freedoms" and, like the right wing, he wants to keep certain foreigners out.

    The ERG and mainstream Conservative Party don't want Norway Plus because not only do they not want foreigners, but they also don't want workers and environmental rights.

    About the only people who might consider a Norway Plus scenario are those people who have just left the Labour Party (and any Tories who may be tempted to join them).

    I find it beggars belief that 52% cannot be ignored because civil war whereas 48% can be ignored quite happily.

    Heck demographics and a realisation from some that the "unicorns and rainbows" Brexit they were promised isn't going to happen may now have the majority not wanting whatever kind of Brexit we're going to end up with.
    • No-deal - really only the ERG seem to want that
    • Theresa May's deal, Remainers, Labour Party and large parts of the Conservative party are against that
    • Labour's fanciful suggestion, Remainers and the Conservatives are against that
    • Norway Plus, hardly anyone wants that
    • and so it goes on
    Brexit, and the associated economic turmoil is hardly going to help.
     
  2. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK then No Deal it is.


    Exactly who said that?
    I don't see much difference between you and the hard brexiters on a psychological level. They believe that because 52% of the people voted Brexit we should have a hard Brexit and you believe the 48% should do what you want.
     
  3. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That won't happen - turkeys don't vote for Christmas? As I've said a few times before, the EU project is the lucrative 'pension plan' for redundant politicians and friends and family of all the member countries. In fact I'm surprised there are so many MPs who favour a no-deal; they're probably the ones who put country before self-interest and their party loyalties?

    How devastating that we've lost Honda. And all because of the imminent demise of the diesel engine. Big mistake!
     
  4. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    Not really, after all the Civic (which was the core of Swindon manufacturing) sells far more petrol versions than diesel versions. Unfortunately for Swindon there were a number of factors in play:
    • Overcapacity in global vehicle manufacturing
    • A trade deal between Japan and the EU which means cars made in Japan can be sold tariff free in the EU whereas UK manufactured vehicles may attract a tariff post-Brexit
    • Concerns expressed by Honda over the last couple of years about their post-Brexit supply chain
    In theory, Swindon could have been in line for one of the new Honda models (however powered) but those other factors have mitigated against it.
     
  5. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    Well that would be a pretty bad outcome - I'm surprised about how sanguine you are about it.

    You did - unless I misunderstood what you posted

    The 48% (or more) who want to Remain represent the single largest group - any other option will have much less support.

    I'd consider a compromise if only any compromise weren't much worse for the UK than remaining in the EU.
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    who are you speaking to and what are you answering here?
     
  7. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sound like the Liberal Democrats are the party for you.
     
  8. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    cerberus - do you have him on ignore ? If so you won't see content I have quoted from him.
     
  9. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Antisemetic means you do not bend over and touch your toes for Israel now. It is the new definition!
     
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  10. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    If only they hadn't betrayed every single principle they had for a taste of power back in 2010 and as a consequence rendered themselves effectively unelectable.
     
  11. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And elected a born again christian as leader having done that. But on your core beliefs they do agree with you.
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If it is impossible to come to some agreement then NO Deal it will be. Contrary to what you said I have read many times that a Norway plus is the one thing which is likely to get enough support in Parliament to get through. It still recognises Brexit. It is just a pity that the Hard Brexiteers have been telling their supporters that that is the only thing which is Brexit.

    No, it was not what I posted nor what I was saying. It came from your thinking.


    The largest number of people is those opposed to a No Deal. After that you have people who may have voted leave or remain and some who have changed their vote, both ways and the new people coming in. My argument with you is that you believe they all think the same thing, that they all want the same solution. You for instance believe there must be a second vote when there is not the numbers in Parliament wanting that. If you label everyone together you get 52%\who voted leave, 48% who voted remain. In both piles it would be wrong to assume all the people in them think alike. The whole stupidity of this vote which they never expected to get through is that it did not offer any solution to the problems it was going to create. It should never have been done without at least a white paper such as the SNP produced so that we could have the questions which have been going on since before the vote. That is Cameron's responsibility. Contrary to what people are saying here, what I see suggested again and again is extending Article 50.

    I don't see Norway plus as being much worse....and even though the UK can legally return I hardly think it would enjoy the same privileges and respect it was given before. You want to have another vote and get 52% in favour of Remain and 48% against because that is pretty much the likely outcome if came in favour of remain. It won't make any difference to Scotland but..well I would be glad not to be living in England and frankly this idea comes over as authoritarian. To do that and if it was such a small vote to act on it would be as crazy as the Hard Brexit demanding they do all the negotiations when it is something which is going to affect the whole country and when the vote in favour was tiny. I just cannot see that not causing civil discontent, though just in England, not Scotland.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
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  13. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We don't want bloody foreigners telling us how to run our country, especially when they're un-elected foreigners.. On two occasions we've had to go to war for our independence and now we want give it away just like that? What an abject betrayal of all those who were killed and maimed just so that a bunch of foreign bureaucrats can live off of our taxes - as if we don't have enough parasites of our own.
     
  14. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pardon - is that question for me?
     
  15. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually we went to war twice to stop Germany becoming the unchallenged dominant force in Europe.
    The act of betrayal is giving away everything our parents and grandparents fought for because of ignorance of what they fought for.
     
  16. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    Yes they are opposed to a no deal, but it's not clear what they are for. Extending Article 50 (even if the EU agrees to it and it's not clear why they should) may or may not resolve that basic impasse.

    If the Labour Party is "given a go" and Jeremy Corbyn pushes for "customs union without adhering to the terms of a customs union" he will run aground in the same way as the Tories' "rainbows and unicorns" initial Brexit view did.

    Personally I think that EEA membership is the least-worst alternative to remaining in the EU. It would preserve the four freedoms and cause the least damage to the UK economy. It would likely be more expensive than EU membership and we would lose our ability to influence the rules we would be obliged to follow which are the major drawbacks.

    The trouble is that the two main parties are opposed to it because neither wants to recognise the four freedoms so it cannot happen unless one or both parties changes its position 180 degrees in the next month..
     
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  17. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    I was quoting and responding to alexa - do you have them on ignore ? If so you will not be able to see the content I quoted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
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  18. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Affirmative.
     
  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmmmm It seems that the Corbyn suggesting a Norway style deal was the very last thing the Mag 7 wanted.

    The short version written on the 9th updated 17th Feb this year

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...bels-help-force-Norway-style-Brexit-deal.html

    The longer version with some nuts and bolts.

    7th Feb 2019
    very long, please read the rest at http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...exit-policy-looks-an-awful-lot-like-norway-pl

    Well certainly I had thought it would end the UK having a say, although the countries in it say this is not the case at all. That they are always consulted. As I had suspected this is not an identikit of Norway's deal and concerning having a say, the next paragraph to the one I left says

    I seem to remember this kind of deal allows the countries involved to be able to have whatever deals they want with other countries so that presumably is a plus to leaving.

    This article seems to be answering all your points

    They also mentions the new swiss policy. They are looking for an immigration policy which they believe would be acceptable here.

    This looks very promising. Even Portillo was saying on This Week last week or the one before that he thought Corbyn had at last brought in a deal which could work and be acceptable to a majority in Parliament. It looks like there is a very promising solution which can be worked on and a very good reason for extending Article 50.
     
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  20. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    Jeremy Corbyn absolutely does not want a Norway-style deal because he has stated unequivocally that free movement of people is off the table.

    The article you quoted seems confused. The deal that Labour is pursuing is nothing like Norway's (EEA membership, four freedoms and so on) and much more like Turkey's (customs union).

    Regarding the UK having a say - that's just another case of "rainbows and unicorns"
     
  21. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I told you before on Brexit look to Starmer not Corbyn. I am sorry you are unable to accept the counter argument. Even the Mail one links it to Norway. I think you just want to have Corbyn as someone who you rubbish and am sorry you are not open when people suggest different.
     
  22. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    Both Starmer and Corbyn have ruled out the four freedoms - any attempt to have anything like Norway is dead in the water - the closest relationship one could have is customs union membership.

    Both Starmer and Corbyn have said that the UK must be free to negotiate with third parties who already have EU deals - this is fundamentally incompatible with customs union membership - the closest relationship one could have is some kind of trade deal.

    Unless either gentleman is willing to change their position on those key points, there's no progress.

    Of course the Mail links it to Norway. A Norway-Brexit is a Mail reader's worst nightmare. Even if the proposed Labour position were nothing like Norway, the Mail would still claim it was. Anything except a no-deal is capitulation to the Mail.
     
  23. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you say but others do not and that includes Portillo. You have been given new information as to how and why the situation is changing. I am sorry you are unable to accept new information but we have come to a dead end here.
     
  24. The Don

    The Don Well-Known Member

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    What new information ?

    The Labour Party position is that the four freedoms is unacceptable - I do not believe that has changed - without the four freedoms, any Norway-like deal is impossible.

    The Labour Party have said that they want a customs union with the EU but they also want the freedom to negotiate trade deals with third parties who have EU trade deals. This is fundamentally incompatible with customs union membership.

    Regarding this piece you quoted from the Daily Mail:

    There's a huge difference between offering free movement of people and allowing someone in to do a job on a work visa if it cannot be filled locally. The latter position is the current German position except that "locally" means in the EU.

    The Daily Mail is attempting to frighten the horses with stories of Labour not wanting Brexit
     
  25. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and that article explains how these come in just slightly rearranged in order to be acceptable to people and the EU.

    again the article does deal with that. You are crying because they do not have the done deal and because it is impossible for you to say a civil word about Corbyn.
    The piece I put in from the Mail was only to show you that your friends the Mag 7 left despite a possible Norway deal.

    Again I see no point and have no time to go back and forth saying nothing. There is a deal which is very like a Norway deal but does not come in exactly as you want as it is not a copy. It would be one particularly suited for the unique situation of the UK. Things have been checked with the EU and this looks acceptable and would fall within the red lines that they said they would renew talks with. You just want to be a broken record. Your information is not up to date. I see no point in going round in circles. I do not accept your position. You do not accept mine. We have nothing to discuss.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019

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