Shocking satellite image shows Alaska’s formerly frozen Yukon Delta is completely green

Discussion in 'Science' started by Durandal, Jul 29, 2021.

  1. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    The fact is Bangladesh would not have to buy staples if they had not made past mistakes politically and agronomically. Some choices they are making now are exacerbating the problem. Such as destruction of mangroves for shrimp production.
    I suppose you’ve been led to believe the situation in Bangladesh is deteriorating due to climate change. In fact, malnutrition is on the run. Food production is up. Rice production has increased 3-fold over the last few decades and Bangladesh reached rice self sufficiency in 2012 I believe. Here is a bit on how as the climate changes, malnutrition decreases in Bangladesh.
    https://www.unicef.org/bangladesh/e...nutrition-while-violent-disciplining-children

    Wikipedia?
    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make with Wikipedia but I looked and found several pieces of misinformation in the wiki. First, their UNICEF data is many years old. Hunger has diminished substantially as my links show as opposed to the wiki claim that progress has stagnated. Also, the wiki claim soil fertility problems are due to intensive farming is incorrect. The polder systems deny farm land annual silt deposits agriculture used to rely on. Also, erosion resulting from narrowed and silt choked waterways destroys fertile land.

    Using Wikipedia as your source of information on this topic will get you in trouble. Whoever is contributing to wiki on this subject is not well informed.
    That depends on how much more growth they see in their manufacturing sector. I don’t see any reason they can’t import more food. Do you? What makes Bangladesh any different than Japan or Mexico?
    Sure. That’s my point as well. Any hunger going forward is a product of politics and poor agronomics. Distribution can alleviate some negative consequences of poor politics and agronomics. It can also be used in a global economy to trade industrial production for food. And there aren’t very many places where malnutrition can’t be solved locally with better agronomics, politics, and hygiene.
    No, not really as I’ve shown with Bangladesh. The narrative is that climate change is to blame for their problems but it is in fact other things—not climate change.
    Very few regions will see decreased production from climate change. Food and malnutrition are not a concern in the context of climate change. We certainly need to take better care of our planet, but food production isn’t and won’t suffer from climate change. Unless of course the climate cools. Then we would be very concerned.

    Of course population is increasing in a country where food is becoming more available and teen marriage/pregnancy is the norm.

    But much of the world will be at zero population growth in a couple decades. Food production will continue to grow—you haven’t even considered things like GMO nitrogen fixation in non legume crops. We are on the brink of another leap forward in production like we saw with hybridization of corn and the introduction of commercial nitrogen fertilizer in the 1940’s-1960’s.
    All these countries have to do is modernize their agricultural sectors.
    You are talking to a socialist-at-heart so I’m not sure why you keep bringing that up. But yes, free market capitalism is allowing Bangladesh to buy Canadian wheat that you erroneously assumed couldn’t happen. It will allow them to buy higher quality food in the future.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Sure. We suppress the wages of agricultural work so that we get cheaper food!

    We hire agricultural labor at below minimum wage and discard them whenever the boss wants. They get no benefits, and our healthcare is priced way out of their reach. If they are here on temp visas from Mexico, they have no recourse if the boss simply refuses to give them a paycheck. They often have to be continuously on the move, with little opportunity to settle down and invest in a future for themselves and their families.

    That is NOT something that leads America's youth to think there is a career in agriculture for them, no matter what the position might be.
     
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  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    And, I answered that.
    Technology changes usually do require assistance from government.

    That's happened with electricity creation and distribution, with air transportation, with automobiles, with water distribution, with television more than once, etc.

    Moving to electric cars means investment in our electric grid, in charging stations, in rethinking how roads are paid for (since gas tax will go down), etc.
    This doesn't make sense. The topic is what our government policy should be. Whether an individual wants to take a cruise is not something government can prevent for the reason I stated, if nothing else.
    We use free market enterprise for that. Are you proposing communism, or were you just not aware of that??

    And, all our auto manufacturers are moving to electricity over time. Government policy can make that happen faster by attending to the issues above.
    ???
    More dictator crap. I think you have to get over your fear, as I don't see your dictator crap happening.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting that the suppression of pay for agricultural labor is a plot to increase immigration??
     
  5. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am telling you that compared to where they came from, they make excellent wages in America.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This change is more proof of our changing climate - the warming of Earth.

    By turning green, Earth is capturing more heat from the sun, which increases the rate of warming.

    The general greenness does NOT mean that tundra isn't rotting and thus emitting methane - which is far worse as a greenhouse gas.

    You suggest this is "better", but you don't even try to defend that.
     
  7. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You gave all great reasons for why illegals are wrong to show up here in America.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I will repeat my earlier statements.
    Warmer is not bad. Warmer is fine. The scientists do not report what you say. They do not claim there is more methane.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Being paid less than a living wage here does not do them any good here. If they are here to stay, it means that you get to support them with your taxes, higher healthcare bills, etc. And, there are serious reasons that we have laws about benefits, about minimum wage, about working conditions, etc. - laws that are there for very good reason.

    And, if you are counting on them leaving (so that your "excellent wages" claim makes ANY sense at all) what you are describing is moving jobs out of America.


    Besides, this discussion of agriculture has to do with the agricultural economy of the world. Someone suggested that if Canada can create more food, Bangladesh might not be starving anymore.

    How we manage to suppress the cost of labor doesn't help with that.
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Arctic tundra emits methane even in winter
    By Michael Kahn

    2 MIN READ

    LONDON (Reuters) - The arctic tundra emits the same amount of methane in winter as in the warmer months, a surprising finding that bolsters understanding of how greenhouse gases interact with nature, researchers said on Wednesday.

    Scientists have long known that wetlands produce large amounts of methane and had thought it unlikely that greenhouse gases escaped from beneath frozen tundra, said Torben Christensen, a biogeochemist at Lund University in Sweden.

    “Mother Nature is showing us something that is really surprising,” Christensen, who led the study published in the journal Nature, said in a telephone interview.

    “Nobody would expect to have loads of gas seeping out from a frozen environment.”

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-methane-even-in-winter-idUSTRE4B26EA20081203
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  11. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Democrats tell us constantly that the illegals cost America nothing in benefits to them.

    You sure turned them on their heads.

    Illegal aliens are well known for removing wealth from America and getting it back to the homeland of their birth to their left behind families.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    They are way high on the food insecurity measures.

    And, buying more food from Canada is NOT a solution.

    Also, blaming them for agricultural practices is pointless. They get paid for shrimp. That's how capitalism works.
    Bangladesh is way behind both Japan and Mexico.

    Suggesting that all they have to do is become an international high tech powerhouse is just WAY beyond stupid.
    This is just more of your blame game. "They're hungry because they are stupid."

    That attack is just plain disgusting - and ignorant, too!
    No, you just can't read my posts to save your freaking life!

    The problem isn't that they can't buy Canadian wheat, obviously. Anyone in the world can buy Canadian wheat. I keep pointing out that this is free market capitalism.

    The problem is that Bangladesh doesn't have the cash to buy enough Canadian wheat to move them out of the bottom rungs of food insecurity for their country.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There are PLENTY of reasons for people to want to come to America.

    So, I really have NO idea how you came up with that ridiculous sentence.
     
  14. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You painted them as victims. Is the country victimizing them the best place to live?
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    First, the warming. THEN the rotting and tundra fires that release carbon.

    Plus, you dodged the reflectivity issue.

    The point is that warming in the high northern latitudes increases the speed of climate change.

    Scientists absolutely report this problem. Where do YOU get
    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...20-show-how-excess-heat-is-expressed-on-earth
     
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  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I pointed out that there is no leeway in agricultural product pricing that could come from further suppressing labor prices.

    Plus, agriculture in America is failing to attract young people evaluating career opportunities.
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Programs that bring labor to the US legally, but require those laborers to return home are absolutely NO different in that respect.

    Whether it is legal or illegal makes NO difference.

    And, those programs are FULLY supported by the right wing. In fact, in 2013 the immigration reform bill that was designed in bipartisan committees included this kind of labor as one of the demands of the right wing - strongly supported by the US Chamber of Commerce, which STRONGLY opposed the idea of restricting American jobs to those who are citizens or hold permanent residency status.

    That bill passed the Senate and would have passed the Republican majority House had Speaker Boehner not blocked it from coming to a vote.

    What we should want are workers who are investing in their lives here in America. America has benefitted from people coming here to work to build a future for themselves and America from the time of the colonies.
     
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  18. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Sure. But not because of climate change. And they are improving food security quickly.
    Except it IS part of the solution they are using RIGHT NOW. And more Canadian production makes it more affordable to be MORE of the solution going forward if necessary (which it wouldn’t be if the correct sets were taken domestically).
    Blaming? Why is stating facts somehow twisted into “blaming” with you people? Can’t you just discuss facts? LOL

    Yes, I already said you are responsible for deforestation of coasts in Bangladesh. You were just unaware of your role. You are destroying Bangladesh and blaming climate change.
    So? Do you wish it to remain behind? The point is many countries import food. You act like Bangladesh can’t. It’s bizarre.
    LOL. Can you quote me on that claim? Bangladesh’s garment industry alone has seen a 7% annual export growth rate over the last decade (excluding Covid). Here’s a bit on their advances in technology.

    https://medium.com/global-security/...ecedented-progress-in-bangladesh-95c7dce7b755
    You really don’t know ANYTHING about Bangladesh, do you?
    Stating facts is not blaming anyone—it’s just stating facts. Which is what I’ve done here—stated facts. I’ve stated facts that destroy the false narrative you’ve been sold. You are the one who thinks they can’t become a tech power even though THEY ARE DOING SO NOW.
    What attack? Who is ignorant? Not me. I’m the one stating facts and basing my posts on evidence. You are posting unsubstantiated opinions that are easily shown to be misinformation.

    I can. I can also show how wrong they are—and I’ve been very successful at that.
    They don’t need to buy wheat to accomplish this goal. Do you know what they could do to make a big dent in food security deficit today? Eat brown rice instead of white rice at least part of the year. How much would that cost? And as poverty decreases more (it’s decreasing steadily in spite of climate change) Bangladesh WILL buy more food and other products. Your unsubstantiated opinions haven’t stopped them from buying more wheat from Canada in the past nor will your unsubstantiated opinions stop them from buying wheat and whatever else they want in the future.

    More information for you since you erroneously think Bangladesh is not capable of progress because of climate change. From a few days ago.
    https://www.thedailystar.net/frontp...g-nation-bangladesh-reaches-milestone-2052161

    Pretty good for a young country.
    And:

    https://www.worldbank.org/en/results/2018/11/15/bangladesh-reducing-poverty-and-sharing-prosperity
    Now would be the time to admit everything you thought you knew about Bangladesh and climate effects on agriculture is wrong. Or you can double down on unsubstantiated opinions and ad hominem.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  19. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    If millions of people try to migrate to areas that are not ready for them they will have gained nothing. If an infrastructure is not in place, if there's no water or electricity, if there is not already an abundance of food production, the migration will fail.

    There is a lot of unused arable land but all of it needs water and huge capital investment.

    IMO any mass-migration requires approval of the host nation and lots of planning to avoid simply moving the catastrophic issues from one location to another...
     
  20. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Farm workers earn an average of $15,000/year in CA. Hourly rates range up to $30-$50 depending on the skills, however, most are day labor and not 40 hour/week jobs. Farmers are just like most other producers...they are low-man in the grand scheme and cannot drive up wages because the other 90% of the economy won't pay the higher prices...
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    https://oxford.universitypressschol...6370.001.0001/acprof-9780198286370-chapter-10
     
  22. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    My comments are not about farming...they are about dealing with mass-migrations and hunger, etc. We have ever increasing population, along with climate change issues, hunger and starvation in many areas, and somehow the US and the world will need to produce a lot more affordable foods. Whatever the nutrition problems are today they will be worse tomorrow. To make significant changes to food production and distribution will take years to implement.

    Few people today want to be farmers so they go to the non-farm careers. Arable land and water and power and supplies and equipment and labor are a huge investment with huge risks...
     
  23. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Did you have a point to make with a 30 year old publication in which the most recent included data set or study is from 1985?

    If you have an argument I’d love to discuss it with you. But data nearing 40 years old really has no interest to me on this subject.

    I did see this though in direct opposition to your claim ag labor is in short supply.

    Of course this is from your almost 40 year old source, but you did just post a link that counters your previous argument.
     
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  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    by you yourself trying to justify authoritarianism by hijacking conservationism
    right you're trying to hijack conservationism for authoritarianism exactly what I said
    I see no value in moving to electric cars until they improve.

    We shouldn't have to be forced to accept substandard garbage because you want to live under an authoritarian government.
    This is my point you are trying to use conservationism to set up a dictatorship.
    Brain dead double talk.


    this is why you have made conservationism into politics you're trying to use it to justify more government control.
    Yeah that's the point most people don't if they did they're probably would never have been any dictators.

    You want the government to control choice. That's a step towards dictatorship. You don't understand the free market what are you a communist?
     
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  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Bangladesh is making progress due to massive infusions of dollars by the World Bank.

    That is not a solution for the world. And, it has not solved hunger in Bangladesh.

    I could have chosen a different country, but that is NOT the issue. The issue is that there are populous countries that have significant numbers in starvation. You can look at Sudan, Somalia, etc. Even India is borderline. Other places in Africa are borderline.

    With impacts on agriculture in these places, donations by World Bank are not going to solve the problem.

    And, neither is Canada's food.
     

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