Should all religious-equivalent laws be struck down?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Levant, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again, we have to be careful about simply saying that a life is terminated; we should be precise in describing exactly what type of life. Of course... the ending of life... that is the case of what happens, though again, even sperm and egg constitute life on their own accord... so too does the common skin cell. So clearly, it takes more than something just being alive to warrant protection from others on a moral basis.

    I would say, that you were actually on the right track earlier when you mentioned "will". If a developing being has developed brain functionality and consciousness enough to be considered possibly having a will, that is a significant milestone if you ask me when it comes to whether it should be protected. But before that or some other milestone is actually reached... to say that something with the mere potential of reaching that point should be given priority over the desires of an already existing being with consciousness, i.e. the mother... I think that is a difficult thing to justify...

    Which again is why I believe that when it comes to deciding law, Pain Perception and or Mental Life/Consciousness should be the gold standard, with the following being the main ranges that should be considered as far as the cutoff point goes:

    -Thalamic Afferents (Week 20): Because its been theorized that connections between afferents may be capable of pain transmission
    -Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 23): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Thalamocortical Fibers
    -Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    -Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 23-29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    -Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 20-29): Because this is the period in which a fetus develops the structures necessary for pain perception
    -Mental Life (Week 29): Because fetal consciousness cannot and has not been observed to occur before this point

    -Meta
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  2. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Let's just keep the goal post on abortion law. The sky is blue....
     
  3. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Scientific studies have established that UNWANTED children are more prone to drug use and criminality!

    Why are you DEMANDING that women must be FORCED to give birth to future addicts and criminals?

    What are YOU DOING to ensure that those UNWANTED children will be raised in homes where they will be wanted and loved?
     
    FreshAir likes this.
  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your GOAL is MILLIONS of UNWANTED children!

    No one is going to change the law until YOU provide a viable and feasible way of dealing with the CONSEQUENCES of what you are DEMANDING must happen.
     
    FreshAir likes this.
  5. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If I felt morally superior, I would insist my opinions be forced on others. You are the one taking that position. The reason I asked if you adopted is to see if you genuinely cared for these precious humans or were just trying to appear sanctimonious. Thanks for clarifying.

    Can you address the issue of enforcement without moving the goal post to murder? Abortion laws failed long before the internet, and abortion drugs. How do you get around:

    Black market abortions
    Abortion drugs
    Medical tourism
     
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As I said, abortion ends a life....so does murder. You can't face that simple fact can you.
     
  7. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Abortion does end a life. I have given you the benefit of being right and you still refuse to address the challenges that go with your claim. What do you propose we do about:

    Black market abortions
    Abortion drugs
    Medical tourism?
     
  8. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I just support the laws that go against those three things. There will always be lawbreakers. For our culture to put a "legal stamp" on something, for some people, that means it is a green light. They have a seared conscious.
     
    Levant likes this.
  9. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Abortion laws failed long before the internet and abortion drugs. I was simply asking why you felt they would work now. Did you think this through?
     
  10. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I thought it through. Outlaw abortion for convenience and the Abortion centers go away. Doctors are prosecuted. Abortion becomes very rare. If a women wants to stick a coat hangar up her cooter I guess no one can stop her. If a third party does it....it's murder. In other words, if a women is so callous she wants to kill her baby for convenience,she can do it herself. She can claim it's her body I guess. Involve a third party....it's murder,
     
  11. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would be no different than pretending it doesn't happen. Not only would it be impossible to enforce, there is no benefit to society. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, even if you had an answer to abortion pills and medical tourism, what do you suggest we do with the thousands of unwanted children? We already have thousands growing up in "the system" that will never know the feeling of being cherished.

    You did at least admit your position is one of convenience.
     
  12. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Personal accountability. Taking responsibility for your actions. Cut off welfare for more children. Identify the fathers using DNA and jail mothers and fathers who are not taking care of their children. We've spent 60 years creating the sexual revolution; it's not going to go back in the jar without pain but it must go back in the jar.
    Abortion has nothing at all to do with a woman's right to choose. It's about free and unrestricted, irresponsible sex; it's about not having to accept the consequences of their actions. Sex has consequences. I am not suggesting a woman can't choose to have sex - remember? I'm pro-choice about a woman owning the choice to have sex. But if she chooses to have sex, protected or not, birth-control or not,. she must accept that there's a risk of pregnancy and must be willing to accept the responsibility for that act.
     
    yabberefugee likes this.
  13. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you HAVE NO realistic or feasible ANSWER to the massive PROBLEM of MILLIONS of UNWANTED children that you DEMAND must be IMPOSED upon society?

    On top of that you have no compassion or empathy for the millions of children that you will expose to lives of MISERY, ADDICTION and CRIME!

    All you have are your UNREALISTIC DEMANDS that will result in MASSIVE TAX INCREASES in the future as society struggles with the negative fallout of UNWANTED children becoming dysfunctional adults!

    In essence you want to turn America into a 3rd world poverty stricken shithole country because of your own selfish DEMANDS!
     
  14. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One thing that the pro death cult all seem to have in common..... they have an aversion to a thing called, "delayed gratification". They want sex, and they want it now! Regardless of any commitment, or understanding of consequences!
     
  15. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No reasonable person would take that as my position. I asked questions to see where you were coming from and so far:

    You claim to care, but only up to the point of making an effort. There are thousands of kids that will never know a loving, permanent home and you are just not willing to do what it takes to actually make a difference.

    Wearing a pro-life T-shirt and calling people murderers may make you feel better about yourself, but does nothing for these precious little lives you claim to care about.

    If you will excuse me, I have to go and claim I care about the homeless by insisting you let them live with you.
     
  16. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You don't know what I do to help kids. I did tell you I have never conceived a child of which I did not show love. I can be an example, but I cannot bring an end to all you suggest. Jesus even said, "the poor will be with you always". Your apology for abortion on demand seems to be that it will end the journey of those that might be in a loving permanent home. I don't need to call anyone murderers. It is what it is.
     
  17. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    True. I don't know so I asked and you told me that you are not willing to do what you demand others do. Your level of care is no better than not caring at all.

    I understand your position and can appreciate those who stand up for the rights of others. I have worked with many pro-lifers that actually walk the walk. Rather than wearing a pro-life hat and then running away once the baby takes their first breath, they give their time and their love to these kids. One was just given permanent custody yesterday.

    Claiming to care is not the same as actually caring.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  18. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Go back and read the posts. I told you I have loved and compared for every child I have helped conceive. Of course I have done what I demand others to do. If they did, we would have no need to slaughter children in the womb. I extend myself to children and offered them hope and a future for at least two decades. Now you may retract your claim. I too have worked with pro lifers.....great bunch of people aren't they? Ever hear of "New Beginnings"? Ever donate to their cause?
     
  19. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are demanding that people give birth against their will and that others have to care for the additional children. Its not really an issue because abortion laws would not work anyway. You were not able to address the challenges that make the law unenforceable.

    I would not paint Pro-Lifers with a broad stroke. Many have a genuine concern and walk the walk while others just wear the hat. The same way pro-choicers claim to value liberty and then push gun control.

    While I am personally against abortion, forcing my opinions on others is not liberty and this level of power has no place in a free country.

    I have not donated any money to that charity.
     
  20. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That"s a great argument! It's like, I am personally against pedophilia, forcing my opinions on others......blah blah blah.
     
  21. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are very creative when moving the goal post. This is a discussion about abortion and so far, your level of concern appears to be limited to shaking your fist and waiting for the government to make a difference. Maybe you donate money and I can certainly respect that. You could not even discuss how they could make a difference.

    Would you care to take another stab at getting around:

    Medical tourism? How do you know who is pregnant and why they are traveling?
    Abortion drugs? Lets not pretend that people cannot obtain illegal drugs.
     
  22. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,618
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There is a law against pedophilia and Jeffry Epstein bought an island where he could partake any way.... so maybe we ought to make it legal? Same logic. When abortion for convenience is illegal, facilities will close down. Taxpayers won't pay for it. Reputable doctors don't do it anyway. You do understand some things are illegal and people do it anyway.....don't you??? Ever hear of the term "outlaw"??
     
  23. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,020
    Likes Received:
    19,308
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would certainly agree that tax payers should not be forced to pay for abortions. No one on either side of the abortion debate is arguing for pedophilia. Just for the sake of polite discussion, lets agree that abortion is wrong and it is illegal effective now. Mary has super religious parents and cannot tell them she got pregnant, so she has decided to abort. She knows abortion is illegal, but can easily take a short flight or call a friend and obtain a pill that will do the trick.

    Can you name one single way to stop her?
     
  24. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    t
    Other than rape or incest victims (less than 1% of all abortions) no one would be forced to give birth against their will. They will have all exercised their free will when having sex. No one is doing anything to them against their will any more than any parent of birth children having to provide for their children would be considered against their will.
     
  25. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Provide any evidence that making abortions would lead to millions of unwanted children imposed on society. In actuality, most who are having abortions, if they can't have one, would raise their children. But, since it's ok to kill unwanted children, I suppose they could just line them up in a cement building and eliminate them, right? Wrong. We don't kill unwanted children, regardless of your opinion that we should.

    We also should not be killing millions of children because it may cost you more money in taxes - besides the fact that you can offer no evidence that is the case. I am willing to accept, though, tax money going for prison sentences for parents who will not take care of their children.
     

Share This Page