Should Muslims convert or?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Canell, Dec 27, 2018.

?

Should Muslims convert to other belief systems?

  1. Yes, to Christianity

    6 vote(s)
    14.3%
  2. Yes, to Buddism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Yes, to Hinduism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Yes, to Judaism

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  5. Yes, to Confucianism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Yes, other religion

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  7. Yes, to science / atheism

    6 vote(s)
    14.3%
  8. Anything but Islam!

    3 vote(s)
    7.1%
  9. No, they are fine

    9 vote(s)
    21.4%
  10. No, you just can't force them out of Islam

    7 vote(s)
    16.7%
  11. No, it is you that should convert to Islam, infidel!!

    3 vote(s)
    7.1%
  12. Other

    6 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    Some American Indians claim to be a lost tribe.

    Doesn't make it so.
     
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  2. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    They also translated together and copied ancient manuscripts. Some Berbers had converted to Judaism and they fought with the Muslims to defeat the pagan Visigoths in Spain.
     
  3. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I feel that way about Trump and Trumpists
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  4. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    MAGA >>>> MAGA>>>>>>MAGA<
     
  5. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    The Visigoths were mostly Nicene Christians by the time the Muslims rolled around. In previous centuries the Visigoths were Arian Christians, and tension with Nicene locals lead to a sort of alliance between Arian Visigoths and Spanish Jews.

    The Visigoths, slowly, were forced to adhere to the Nicene creed and one of the effects was the breakdown in relations between Visigoths and Jews.
     
  6. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Arian Christians were considered heritics.
     
  7. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, by most Nicenes they were, though occasionally pragmatic politics would hint at a reconciliation. Those same pragmatic politics would lead the Visigoths, like their Ostrogothic brethren before them, to adopt the Nicene creed of their subjects. By the time the Muslims came onto the scene Visigoths were mostly Nicene, and this lead to the extremely poor relationship between Visigoths and Jews that lead to the situation you described before.

    Pretty much the same events occurred between Muslims and Jews as occurred between Visigoths and Jews. As rulers of nearly the whole of Iberia, Muslims were a minority in a largely Nicene land. This lead to an alliance between them and the Jews. As their lands receded southward, more and more they became leaders of populations more Muslim and less Christian, leading to a worsening of relations between Muslims and Jews.
     
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  8. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    So those Muslims with limited mental abilities spoke several languages.... Do you speak Arabic?
     
  9. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    In answer to the question in the OP, I'm and atheist, but I don't claim to have any special wisdom regarding major life choices such as abandoning the religion of your ancestors. I did. Should other people? I don't know.
     
  10. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    Muslims and Jews started out With the beginning of Islam with sh-tty relationships.
    The religion was written around robbing and killing the Jews.

    They did join forces in Spain to fight the Christians, but any of this is temporary, and after the dust settled it was back to normal.

    A good example of this in todays time is where Sunni and Shia will join forces to fight a common enemy, but after it is over they will resume killing each other.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Jews aided the Moors in the conquest of Spain in 711 and they collaborated with them against the Christians until 1491 when Ferdinand & Isabella kicked both of them out.
     
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  12. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    Of course not. Nobody gives a buck about you Arabic language and culture.
     
  13. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Muslims protected the Christians of Najran after the Jewish king of Yemen burned 2000 and waived. Jizya. The problem they had with Jews is that the pilgrimage was a revenue stream for them and that included 100 idols at the Kaaba.
     
  14. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    "Temporary" lasted for centuries.
     
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  15. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    Muhammed eliminated the idols at the Kab'ba and turned all the gods into one, Ar Ramon.
    Once there were muslims, there were no idols at the Kab'ba, just the black stone.
    Once Muhammed started raiding, there were less and less Jews every day.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  16. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:

    • acknowledged Islamic superiority
    • accepted Islamic power
    • paid a tax called Jizya to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes
    • avoided blasphemy
    • did not try to convert Muslims
    • complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:
    • restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge
    • restrictions on building synagogues and churches
    • not allowed to carry weapons
    • could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
    • could not bequeath anything to a Muslim
    • could not own a Muslim slave
    • a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
    • a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court
    • dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury
    At times there were restrictions on practicing one's faith too obviously. Bell-ringing or chanting too loudly were frowned on and public processions were restricted.

    Many Christians in Spain assimilated parts of the Muslim culture. Some learned Arabic, some adopted the same clothes as their rulers (some Christian women even started wearing the veil); some took Arabic names. Christians who did this were known as Mozarabs.

    The Muslim rulers didn't give their non-Muslim subjects equal status; as Bat Ye'or has stated, the non-Muslims came definitely at the bottom of society.

    Society was sharply divided along ethnic and religious lines, with the Arab tribes at the top of the hierarchy, followed by the Berbers who were never recognized as equals, despite their Islamization; lower in the scale came the mullawadun converts and, at the very bottom, the dhimmi Christians and Jews.

    BAT YE'OR, ISLAM AND DHIMMITUDE,

    The Muslims did not explicitly hate or persecute the non-Muslims. As Bernard Lewis in The Jews of Islam, 1984 puts it:

    in contrast to Christian anti-Semitism, the Muslim attitude toward non-Muslims is one not of hate or fear or envy but simply of contempt

    An example of this contempt is found in this 12th century ruling:

    A Muslim must not massage a Jew or a Christian nor throw away his refuse nor clean his latrines. The Jew and the Christian are better fitted for such trades, since they are the trades of those who are vile.
     
  17. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Actually Muhammad got rid of all the idols except the Virgin Mary.
     
  18. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    The Visigoths weren't Catholic.
     
  19. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    FAIL again.

    All the Idols.
     
  20. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it a little early to be hitting the sauce, or were you up all night.
     

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