Should, or could Trump pardon himself?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I say he can't, and if he tries, it will be challenged, reach SCOTUS and under the principle 'no man is above the law' ( which is essentially was self pardon achieves ) they will rule against Trump, if he does it.

    What say you?


    https://www.lawfareblog.com/self-pardons-president-cant-pardon-himself-so-why-do-people-think-he-can

    But, this treatise argues that Trump cannot pardon himself for another, more overlooked, section of the Constitution:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...5b045a-26dd-11e8-874b-d517e912f125_story.html

    This is not because of some abstract notion of political morality or a vague commitment to the rule of law. It is not because of the maxim, “No one may be the judge in his own case,” because a pardon is an executive action, not a judicial act. Rather, the answer lies in a neglected part of the Constitution: Article II, Section 3, which directs that the president “shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.”
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
    Jonsa likes this.
  2. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    16,113
    Likes Received:
    8,610
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If he can, then our justice system is a joke and needs to be FIXED. No man is above the law.
     
  3. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    6,947
    Likes Received:
    3,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Given that the NY AG said that he planned a fishing expedition to charge Trump with a crime he may or may not have committed, no American should object to Trump pardoning himself. Democrats may object, though. The Constitution doesn't specify limits to his pardon power.
     
  4. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    16,152
    Likes Received:
    5,578
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Whether he can or cannot is a Constitutional issue. If he could pardon himself, it would be a Constitutional issue, not a justice system issue.
     
  5. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    6,947
    Likes Received:
    3,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If no man is above the law, why is Biden still free after admitting to extortion? Will there be a special prosecutor named to investigate Biden's claim that he asked Xi to help him become US president?
     
  6. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    16,113
    Likes Received:
    8,610
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Please show us when Biden did this ???? Or is it like the imaginary election fraud ???
     
  7. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    41,926
    Likes Received:
    9,853
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If he can given the extraordinary malisciousness of the left he should at least consider. The left has already shown they couldn't care less about evidence or anything else they just want Trump's head on a pike. Nothing else matters not fairness or decency or anything.

    The same jackasses the griped about water boarding terrorist are just fine with the extorted confession of Gen. Flynn.
     
  8. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There's a crap load of evidence. The right just ignores it.
     
  9. XXJefferson#51

    XXJefferson#51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    2,502
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    He can and he should. The only prohibition in the constitution is if he were impeached AND convicted/removed by the Senate. He should pre emptively pardon everyone who had anything to do with his two campaigns and his administration just to take politically motivated federal persecution off the table
     
    Darthcervantes likes this.
  10. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    17,650
    Likes Received:
    6,071
    Trophy Points:
    113
    [/QUOTE]

    He shouldn't because there is nothing that requires it. He couldn't because the perk doesn't allow that. No man above the law is only a principle, not a reality. We all know that there are many people who are above the law.
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The question has a false premise. Your question arises because of your fundamental lack of understanding what extortion is, and is not.

    Do your homework, I cannot do it for you.

    FYI, it was Trump, not Biden, who asked XI to help him in his reelection. Same goes for Zelensky.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...favors-to-dictators-bolton-says-idUSKBN23O3B7
     
  12. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    41,926
    Likes Received:
    9,853
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No their us not. The left's willingness to except fiction as evidence in the hunt for their pound if flesh, puts one in mind of the heady days of the Committee of Public Safety, or the equivalent in China seen in the early days of Mao's victory lap.
     
  13. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Please provide the link where the NY AG said "planned a fishing expedition...."
     
  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    partisan drivel.
     
  15. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    23,483
    Likes Received:
    8,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He has two options: self-pardon, or resign and have Pence pardon him. I have been predicting the latter since Trump's Obstruction of Justice became evident (firing of Comey). But I would love to see him attempt the former. If Pence pardons him, that's the end of that. At least in respect to federal crimes. A self-pardon is a different story. I know this partisan Supreme Court will likely uphold it (make a note of my prediction) But I would like to see what excuse they use. They will have to be very inventive to justify declaring Biden and all future Presidents to be above the law.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  16. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    6,947
    Likes Received:
    3,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    NY AG serves notice to Trump on MSNBC she’s coming after him and his family after the election
    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/10/ny...-after-him-and-his-family-after-the-election/

    No crime identified, no crime needed. Just a witch hunt.

    Anyone with half a hair knows what this is about. Trump used the value of his assets in two different ways, one for depreciation against operating income and one to secure a loan. I'm no accountant and I not only know what the witch hunt is about and that it is frivolous.
     
  17. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2018
    Messages:
    7,511
    Likes Received:
    4,409
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No one will prosecute Trump, just like no one prosecuted Hillary.
    Any politician promising you to prosecute Trump is lying, as they know that this door revolves both ways.
     
    Darthcervantes likes this.
  18. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    16,113
    Likes Received:
    8,610
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why would two banks FORGIVE ANYONE $2.8 Billion in debt????
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No politician is going to prosecute Trump, for one reason. They can't.

    But, SDNY, acting entirely on it's own, will, and they are pursuing him.

    No politician will stop them, nor can they.

    Hillary was not prosecuted because it was determined that they didn't have a strong enough case.

    Whether it's a just state of affairs are not, but the more power you have, the stronger your case must be, because, for a prosecutor, there is far more at stake ( the prosecutor's career, primarily ). You and I might be prosecuted for the server, but someone of Hillary's stature, will not be. That's not law, that's life and it will always be that way because there is no law to force any prosecutor to take a case, nor will there ever be, given that the bulk of laws are written by lawyers.

    However, in Trump's case, I think they will, and they are building it as we speak.
     
    ChiCowboy likes this.
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    I didn't find the statement by her that she is planning a fishing expedition, witch hunt, or use of similar such language.

    Please provide it.

    Bank fraud is a serious crime, if it's large enough. It's not frivolous. There probably won't be a long sentence, but there will be a penalty, if found guilty.

    FYI, she didn't say 'after the election' she said 'whether he is reelected or not'.

    Moreover, no language of fishing expedition or witch hunt used, so you have not told the truth.


    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  21. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I doubt he's going to let Pence be president for one minute. Moreover, Trump doesn't strike me as someone who would ever resign.
    Moreover, as much of a Sycophant Pence is, I don't see him being president for day for the ostensible purpose of pardoning Trump, there would be an incredible political price to pay for Pence, and he's a seasoned enough politician to know that. He doesn't strike me as someone with the fortitude to fall on a sword for Trump, which is what he'd be doing, politically. No, Trump, if he does anything, will try and pardon himself.

    In fact, I doubt Pence, especially his wife, likes Trump at all. He's a sycophant, of the worst kind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    5,064
    Likes Received:
    3,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Trump is the kind of guy who, if it's not written, and/or if he thinks he can get away with it, he'll do it. For example, instructing his entire staff to not comply with congressional subpoenas. Because the CGs, as a practical matter, have no teeth, he knew he could get away with it.

    No man is above the law. Some try and get way with it, given the apparency of it, but, in truth, no man is above the law and that is the abiding principle of jurisprudence. For 'a man to be above the law' it would have to be codified, and it isn't.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  23. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    6,947
    Likes Received:
    3,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Did she name a crime? Eric Trump was grilled. Haven't seen the charges.
     
  24. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,816
    Likes Received:
    13,353
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A president can pardon anyone they want including themselves.

    There are no restrictions and the no man above 5he law doesn't apply to pardons because the nature of a pardon is exactly to put someone above the law.

    And yes the founders considered the possibility of a self-pa4don, it's in Madison's notes, but they, like so many things, simply didn't address it. The Court would have to assume the intent of the founders was to have no limits on it whatsoever.

    It's one of those thongs they kicked down to the states to figure out and amend the constitution if they want.
     
  25. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Flynn was waterboarded. LMFAO! Good one.
     

Share This Page