Should there be a different type of marriage category for younger teens?

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by kazenatsu, Jul 11, 2021.

  1. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Why not? The idea in both legal marriage age and legal sex age (when one can legally have sex) is based upon the ability to give informed consent. Legal emancipation is a process by which a person under the standard age of majority can show themselves as capable of giving informed consent and thus become a legal adult in advanced. I am willing to give such a thing to even a 10 year old (the lowest age in the article) if such a person can actually prove they are capable of such maturity and thought. Do I expect it to happen? Not really, but providing for that one in a billion shot does no harm. But why would you not want the child in question to be capable of providing informed consent?
     
  2. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    You are saying that, but you are not clearly explaining why this is a valid position or argument.

    Please provide an example or two of such a situation. I understand that there could be more outside of what you give, assuming that you can provide any such scenarios at all.
     
  3. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the modern world. It is becoming more and more rare for marriage to be a once in a lifetime event. You'll need a better argument than this to support your position.

    Both of those resources are already strained and understaffed. You are talking about adding onto the already overbooked workload. Not to mention that, especially with a child, a judge is going to want more than an hour to determine if such a marriage will be in the best interest of a child.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I threw out the idea of limiting these child marriage exemptions to one time. If either party leaves that marriage, they will not be allowed to do so again with someone else.

    (If a girl gets married at 15 and then divorces, she will have to wait until 18 to get married again. Or, if a 25 year old guy marries a 16 year old and then divorces, he will not be allowed to marry some other 16 year old.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, contrary to popular belief, judges rarely ever "determine" things. They just rely on someone else's expert opinion or investigation. That person would be the social worker. The social worker is going to tell what her investigation has found, give her opinion, and explain why she came to the opinion she did. The judge will then consider what she has said and make a decision based on that. It doesn't take the judge more than half an hour. Sometimes he sleeps on it. He probably spends more time filling out all the required paperwork than he does actually thinking about what decision to make. Judges might make ten or twenty of these decisions each day. It is almost like a conveyor belt.

    In many circumstances they'll have five different parties in the court room at the same time so the judge can deal with them one after the other, in short order, at his convenience, since the judge's time is the most valuable. Sometimes a party might have to reschedule for another day if the court runs out of time.
    The judge usually reads a brief before the hearing so he can think about each decision before he appears at the hearing. That shortens the time the hearing takes.
    He usually has so many cases going on at the same time that he won't be able to remember his thoughts about each case, so he takes some quick notes to help him remember what his opinion was, or what points he thought were important.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  6. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    @kazenatsu I noticed that you avoided all the other points in my other posts. You know, the ones asking you to back up your claims or ideas.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The argument against child marriage, which was made in that link, argues that since a marriage takes away certain rights from both persons entering into it, and can impose certain legal obligations, that it could contribute towards a young girl being trapped in that marriage.
    A special category of marriage would give the underage girl all the protections of marriage, but remove all the possible legal obligations, any legal implications of that marriage that might not be beneficial to her.
    The marriage needs to be recognized for her older husband to be able to legally engage in sexual relations with her. There are situations where society is normally unwilling to permit sexual relations due to a certain age difference being involved, but is willing to permit sexual relations with that same age difference if it takes place inside a marriage, which assumes a committed relationship.

    Hope that answers your question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  8. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Marriage is never a disadvantage for the woman. LOL!
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Tell that to the writer of the article in that link.
     
  10. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    I can't because I am too busy laughing at the article. It has to be comedy.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's a real article. It's not satire.
    Progressives have already eliminated any possibility of people under the age of 18 getting married in several states, and are trying to get it passed in more states. I guess they don't see much use for the concept of marriage. Ironically these are the same exact states that are encouraging children to have sex in their teens and making free abortions available to 13 year old girls without her parents ever knowing about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
    doombug and joesnagg like this.
  12. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    Evil cultural marxists hate the traditional Christian patriarchal family.

    Jesus' mother was probably in her mid-teens when God impregnated her.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  13. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    And I asked you to explain what these supposed loss of rights and obligations were. You have yet to do that.

    Again, why does this need to be a special category of marriage? And why only protect underage girls? Do not underaged boys also deserve that same protection? As noted before I understand the concern that an under 18 person might not be able to retain a lawyer because of not being a legal adult, but why a special catagory of marriage instead of simply saying that marriage immediately makes a spouse legally emancipated if they are not already a legal adult?

    The marriage needs to be recognized for her older husband to be able to legally engage in sexual relations with her. There are situations where society is normally unwilling to permit sexual relations due to a certain age difference being involved, but is willing to permit sexual relations with that same age difference if it takes place inside a marriage, which assumes a committed relationship.

    You are cherry picking parts of my post, and avoiding the remainder of them. So I will ask once again, why are you avoiding the bulk of my posts 25-27?
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wasn't trying to be gender specific with the proposal.

    Those aren't really the same thing.
    I've already explained why being legally emancipated and marriage shouldn't necessarily be connected.
    Obviously someone who is not yet 18 should be able to end such a marriage whenever they want, without the law making their age a barrier to doing so.
     
  15. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Except you keep doing it. You could just talk about under age children instead of girls.

    You've claimed that, but you have yet to explain how they are not the same thing? If I missed it, then refer me to the post number. I won't ask you to type it again if you can just refer me.to the post.
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Getting married is not the same thing as getting emancipated. I don't see why you think one should automatically be connected to the other.
    There are different situations.
    Even if a girl is legally emancipated, I don't think that should mean she should have the right to enter into a marriage without input from anyone else.
    And just because a girl is married, doesn't mean she is responsible enough in other ways to be legally emancipated.
     
  17. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Ever noticed that the concern is always about the female and not the male? Men can and have been trapped into marriages too.

    I always saw that as the preferred solution to the spat over gay marriage etc. Separate the religious aspect from the legal rights aspect. Then people would be free to recognize or not recognized each others’ marriages without it taking away rights.

    That seems pretty nonsensical. I don’t see why consent to marriage should necessarily equate to consent to sex.

    No. Sexual predators and pedophiles do not escape being so just because they marry a 12 year old.

    What would be the point of such a marriage? Just to enable 13 year olds to have sex before society would otherwise consider them old enough to consent to it? Some other purpose? Would they be considered old and mature enough to consent to that other purpose?

    Again, why is this being phrased to exclude a young boy getting married instead of a young girl?

    Why should there be any such loophole to sexual consent? That’s the better question. Brings up the related question of whether or not it is possible to rape your spouse. I think it is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  18. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    delete
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  19. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    To me, to be legally allowed to consent to something means that one can comprehend the potential consequences of their actions and provide informed consent. I can't see where the level of maturity between the two decisions would be any different.
     
  20. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    It is consent to different things. Giving consent to one should not imply giving consent to the other.
     
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    No, it can't. There is no earthly reason for young girls to be married. It's positively primitive, and is almost ALWAYS a power imbalance situation.
     
  22. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Not my point, nor my claim. The basis of ability to give informed consent is the same.
     
  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is your PERSONAL opinion.

    Only a hundred and twenty years ago it was seen as perfectly normal and natural in the US.

    Some girls were anxious to get married. For others, it was seen as a preferable option when they got pregnant. Still for others, the parents were anxious to marry their daughters off due to their poverty and financial situation.

    What you are bringing up is really kind of a separate topic from this thread.
    If you want to discuss that question specifically (whether it is reasonable for girls of a certain age to get married), maybe we should take it to another thread.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let me emphasize again, the issue of teen girls getting married is not entirely an issue about consent. Yes, of course, the girl should have to be giving her free consent, but the point is that her consent alone is not enough.
    Because of her age, she doesn't have the automatic right to get married no matter what the situation is.

    I think you are obscuring the issue. Both her consent and the consent of other parties (her husband, her parents, a judge acting on the informed recommendation of a social worker) would be required.

    You are correct that she by herself can't entirely give consent due to her age, which is why the consent of additional parties are required to assess the situation.

    Trying to control when a teen girl has sex is obviously different than trying to control when she gets married, as you should well realize.
    In many cases the decision of marriage would be tantamount to controlling when she can have sex with an older age guy.

    Your argument seems very narrow minded here. It seems to me that your argument basically boils down to "If a girl can consent to have sex with a younger guy, she can also consent to having sex with an older guy".
    I think once you can see that, you might be able to recognize how senseless your argument actually is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Yes, exactly. A hundred and twenty years ago.
     

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