Should we fine people who don't vote? Should voting be mandatory?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Bluesguy, Feb 4, 2021.

  1. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, the article was a good example of today's dystopian doublespeak.

    Thousands of noble people rigged the election to "save democracy". LOL
     
  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    ..based on the "sovereignty of the individual" delusion, which requires urgent examination in schools.

    Who "rigged" the election?
     
  3. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's a loss of faith in the human initiative and self reliance and yes the risk and reward that offers and does so most through capitalistic economic principles. Young people are taught the government is responsible for them and their happiness and once that happen they tend to demand more and more of it and there is only one way to get them, taxing those who are successful and inflating the economy and the history of government inflationary policies destroying their economies into collapse. And the young are not taught that history at least apparently not in it's true history.
     
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  4. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You don't believe you have the right to act in your own self interest as long as those self interest do not violate the law, that government should dictate to you what are your interest and how they will be served......or not.
     
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  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I believe I have a right (and a responsibility) to act in my own self interest, of course.

    But you have left out the other half of the equation, namely, the responsibility (and the right) of the community (via its government) to enable the above-poverty participation of all citizens in the development of the nation's prosperity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  6. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Every community can do that if the voters wish. That's by voting for mayor and city council.

    We already see in the local/urban petri dishes of democracy that the Marxist/Socialist theories fall apart even on a small scale.

    People should run their cities any way voters wish. They should also leave the federal government with the smallest amount of responsibility possible. When a city screws up their politics that city suffers and people can move to a "better" city. If the federal government screws up, they screw up everyone, and there's no safe place to run.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  7. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Fortifying" means swinging the results to their preferred outcome versus the voters' prefer outcome.

    Most of us used to call that "rigging", and some of us still do.


    [​IMG]
     
  8. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Oh, but they didn't rig the election. To claim so, is dystopian doublespeak.

    They made sure the election was safe and secure.
    Christopher Krebs stated this was the most secure election in history.
    AG Barr said there was not enough evidence of fraud to change any results of the election.

    Those thousands of people made that noble effort work.
     
  9. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    They were not rigging the election; they were fortifying it. And they believe the public needs to understand the system’s fragility in order to ensure that democracy in America endures.
    https://time.com/5936036/secret-202..._term=politics_2020-election&linkId=110717147

    Fortifying in not rigging. No matter how dystopian you try to paint it.
     
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Voters' preferred outcome, which is?......

    Obviously you and I have totally different views on the "preferred outcome".

    I offer the explanation**, to see if it's possible to reduce the current deadly hyper-partisanship.

    **and the solution: a synthesis of classical liberalism's 'sovereignty of the individual", with the Marxist concept of well-being for all (via an above-poverty, government Job Guarantee).

    (link)

    The Case for a Job Guarantee | Wiley

    "One of the most enduring ideas in economics is that unemployment is both unavoidable and necessary for the smooth functioning of the economy. This assumption has provided cover for the devastating social and economic costs of job insecurity. It is also false.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    But competitive self-interested individuals don't wish it, that's the point.

    Macroeconomics, the concern of Marxists, of necessity is about national and international economics. You haven't got past local microeconomics yet.

    Addressed above, you merely confirm your adherence to microeconomics as the basis of economics, which is inadequate to deal with issues arising in a global supply-chain system.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  12. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Its a bad policy based on a bad premise, but I think its unconstitutional. That vote is the clearest most fundamental expression of free speech. The right to refuse to vote is also a fundamental expression of free speech. Its a form of political protest against the government that will be readily protected under any federal challenge.

    this is about as dead an idea on its face as any. The best you can do is provide a federal or state tax exemption for proof of voting. That too may be challenged but its not on its face punitive.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  13. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That link is just an offer to purchase a book which apparently says that the government should pay people who can't or don't want to work so that we move out of fossil fuels and into the Green New Deal.

    I was expecting an article explaining the case for a job guarantee.

    Not impressed or convinced.
     
  14. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pretty much every large city is implementing left-wing ideologies. Many are pushing Socialism and a few are on the verge of full-blown Marxism. Obviously, a majority of voters do "wish it" on their city because they are voting "for it". The results look pretty awful and sensible people who don't "want it" are fleeing the most Socialist cities and states.


    Macroeconomics and microeconomics are a concern of both your Marxist proponents and my Capitalist proponents. No one is going to get "past that" and everyone will keep fighting for the system they believe achieves the best results for the whole society. No one should be worrying what The State is going to "do to us next". Federal government should be practically invisible to the daily lives of citizens. A small federal government with very limited power would bring less controversy, and thus, be more unifying.

    I'll repeat: Cities can do as they wish, and they should. The federal government needs to leave most decisions to cities and states, negotiate foreign deals which don't harm domestic workers to the benefit of foreign workers, protect us from invasion, maintain infrastructure, and keep their hands off everything else.
     
  15. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    We've got an interesting situation, Dairy... unemployed people (which include the categories you listed) don't pay federal income taxes.

    But, at the other end of the spectrum, we've got a very large number of wealthy people who don't even come CLOSE to paying a "fair share" of federal income taxes. You've probably read my 'rants' about this before... on PAPER, the rich may be in 'this tax bracket', or 'that tax bracket', but if they hire tax lawyers and tax accounts (as the big-rich ALWAYS do), they end up paying little or nothing in taxes....

    Why? Because our U. S. Tax Code is brimming with all kinds of tax loopholes, tax shelters, exemptions, exclusions, deductions, "carried-interest", and dozens of ways that clever people can avoid paying anything but a small fraction of what they SHOULD pay.

    Last note: both wealthy Republicans AND Democrats are perfectly happy to leave this thoroughly unjust tax system exactly as it is -- and that's WHY it is never changed, even though it desperately needs to be completely thrown out and totally re-written! Strange stuff to hear from a rock-solid, Right-wing Conservative like moi... right? :eyepopping:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  16. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    UE people pay income tax. I was reduced in hours in the middle of summer due to pandemic. I was able to collect some UE benefits while hours were reduced.
    I receive a 1099, and that UE income must be included in my earnings.
    Ergo, I am paying taxes on my unemployment.

    So, your claim about UE people not paying taxes is false.

    No, I am not surprised to hear you think many rich don't pay their fair share. Everyone knows that. But some will never admit it.

    They state some RW stuff about how much of the overall burden the rich pay compare to the poor who may make enough money to eat, shelter, and clothe.
    And say something about 50% of the population not paying taxes, when most of that 50% are not even eligible, age wise or income wise to pay taxes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  17. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    That would immediately be called a "poll tax" and he dead in the water. The local states and counties and cities should insure their polling places are open and available but that is it.
     
  18. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's not a responsibily of the government. That is the persons responibilty. You have "right" to be paid above that, that is for you to make your labor worth more than that. I have NEVER looked to the government as the provider or the repsonsible party for my success in life.
     
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  19. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    In your Post #24, you said, "The other 1/2 are students in grade, jr high, senior high schools, and colleges, or they are poor or seniors and poor." These are not in the generally-accepted category of what "UE" is, is it? (does this mean, "Unemployed"?). I had pointed out that about half of American citizens don't pay any federal tax at all....

    But, yes, (sigh!), in point of fact, you're right... Unemployment Benefits, per se, as paid by the government(s) are, indeed, taxable, including all the extra welfare 'slop' that they decided to dish out as "unemployment".
     
  20. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Many of the capital rioters didn't vote. Do you seriously want them to vote?
     
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  21. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    I also find it ironic that the left is against voter suppression but has no issues performing this political stunt of impeachment, in order to keep Americans from voting for the candidate they want.
     
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  22. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    That's impossible. Only the community, via its government, can ensure above-poverty employment for all, because it won't - and can't - happen by itself in wholly free markets, given the interplay of competitive individual self-interestedness AND the widely-varying capabilities of individuals.

    There's the problem right there.

    Face it, or watch political hyper-partisanship tear your nation apart.


    That's just a statement of your inadequate and insufficient ideology which has worked for YOU.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  23. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    So you are for voter suppression and would vote for Trump again? Wow
     
  24. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Why would you claim that "above-poverty employment" cannot happen "by itself in wholly free markets"...? It has worked quite well in many different societies, in different countries, for a very long time.

    You exist, therefore the country you live in OWES you a living? Bullshit!

    You get what you are WORTH and what you can EARN in a free human labor market. A basket-weaver may make minimum wage... a brain surgeon may be worth a million dollars a month. And, if you are worth nothing, know nothing, and can do nothing productive, why should anyone, including a constitutional government funded by working TAXPAYERS pay you anything...?!

    Face it... parasitism is universally despised by every successful nation in the world, and always has been, since the beginning of civilization.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  25. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I think you are aware of the MMT thread: the JG is a central plank of MMT.
    [link)
    MMT: overcoming the political divide. | PoliticalForum.com - Forum for US and Intl Politics
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021

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