Shroud of Turin

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by YouLie, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    This is a fun topic! I believe it's real. I believe it's the closest thing to evidence of a resurrection. There are a couple of documentaries out there worth watching too.

    "The new test, by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy, used the same fibers from the 1988 tests but disputes the findings. The new examination dates the shroud to between 300 BC and 400 AD, which would put it in the era of Christ.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/30/shroud-turin-display/2038295/
     
  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, 300 to 400 yrs. after Christs death there would have been nothing left to wrap in a shroud.

    Secondly, if the Christ did indeed look like a hippy white man, he would have been an anomaly in the area and probably ostracized rather than followed.
     
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  3. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    That is the entire basis for the Christian religion - that there was nothing left in the shroud!

    One guy reconstructed the face of Jesus from the Shroud. He didn't look like a hippy white guy at all.
     
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  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm not going to argue against the shroud being the closest thing to evidence, but exactly in what way is the shroud of turin close to evidence of resurrection?
     
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  5. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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  6. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    That's a good question. I suppose evidence of the resurrection is a stretch. But it sure is a starting point for belief. There are supernatural aspects of the shroud.
     
  7. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    You said one study dated it to between 300 and 400 AD....would than not mean he was placed in it at that time?

    As far as the reconstruction....it would be interesting to see which one you are referring to.

    untitled.png

    He seems Caucasian to me from this.
     
  8. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    To be fair, he said 300 BC to 400 AD or something like that.
     
  9. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    It's been a year or more since I saw the documentary. I could probably find it for you, but it's really unimportant to me. I don't care if he looks like an Eskimo to you.
     
  10. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    Scientists from Italy’s National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development spent years trying to replicate the shroud’s markings.
    They have concluded only something akin to ultraviolet lasers – far beyond the capability of medieval forgers – could have created them.

    This has led to fresh suggestions that the imprint was indeed created by a huge burst of energy accompanying the Resurrection of Christ.
    ‘The results show a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,’ the scientists said.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...d-flash-supernatural-light.html#ixzz2nkY2vEfX
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
     
  11. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Belief in what? And how is it a starting point for that? What are the supernatural aspects of the shroud? Is it anything that could claim the James Randi million dollars? And without an indication of resurrection, how is the shroud anything but a shroud with someone's picture on it? Even many atheists accept the possibility of someone named Jesus (not that the shroud is signed) was the basis of the story, so I see nothing in the shroud that isn't perfectly compatible with common atheist positions, so what kind of starting point is it?
     
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  12. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    I guess you'll have to study on it a little more, huh? I just posted a link to the "burst of light" supernatural component. What do you think?
     
  13. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I read the paper they produced. The paper wasn't in itself indicating a flash of light origin of the picture, it was exploring the possible methods of origin *assuming* a burst of light. The paper was excluding certain wavelengths and intensities. The conclusions above that seem to have been introduced by either the authors of this article or its sources ("L'Osservatore Romano").

    Even so, in a world with supernatural components to things, we'd have to justify resurrection before other supernatural occurrences. If we allow resurrection the possibility of having unrelated features such as giving off UV laser light, then we can't tell a resurrection from other phenomena, such as angels or devils (lightbringer, get it?), can we? Why would a resurrection give off laser light anyway? Was it directed by Steven Moffat?

    On an unrelated note, here's another quote from the same article you linked: "The Jerusalem shroud has a simple two-way weave – but the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud was introduced more than 1,000 years after Christ lived.".
     
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  14. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    I just hate facts. Dont you? They leave such an oozy corpse when they get hold of a superstition or hoax.
     
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  15. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    The facts make it being a hoax impossible.
     
  16. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Well, as neither of us has access to solid info on the "shroud", i think that statement way way way out of line.
     
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Why could it not been from someone being beamed up into an alien space ship.
     
  18. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if Jesus was a God, why would he pretend to be stuck in a dead body for 3 days...
     
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  19. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I have always found the shroud to be fascinating... but certainly not empirical proof of the resurrection. Even if it is was warped around the body of Jesus, it is not evidence of anything more than he died and his body was warped in cloth. For all we know its not Jesus and just some random dead guy.

    Which is more probable;

    A) The shroud contained the Body of Jesus and God beamed his body up to heaven thus leaving behind an empty shroud with an image of Jesus.

    B) The shroud contained a body that may or may nor have been Jesus, and at some point people removed the body from the shroud, buried the body leaving only the shroud behind.

    I know you will pick A... but without further proof I pick B.

    I think its a great symbol for believers, but not proof of the resurrection to a non believer like me.
     
  20. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    I have access to a lot of solid info. You do too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Bible would be the only source for information on that.
     
  21. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    There is no conclusive evidence that it covered the body of Jesus. But why would anyone keep the shroud of someone else who was crucified? Why the holes in the head from the crown of thorns? Why the photo negative element?
     
  22. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    "Sadly, we have seen many claims spread in the Web made by journalist/bloggers that discuss the content of a paper they never read," lead researcher Paolo Di Lazzaro told me today in an email. "It is obvious that a serious scientific work cannot prove any supernatural action. We have shown that the most advanced technology available today is unable to replicate all the characteristics of the Shroud image. As a consequence, we may argue it appears unlikely a forger may have done this image with technologies available in the Middle Ages or earlier. The probability the Shroud is a medieval fake is really low. In this sense, the Shroud image is still a scientific challenge." - NBC News

    "These processes may have played a role in the generation of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," the researchers report." - NBC News

    "They don't go so far as to claim a miracle. But the fact that UV laser blasters didn't exist in the 13th century, let alone in Jesus' day, strongly implies that they suspect something out of the ordinary was going on." - NBC News

    http://www.nbcnews.com/science/was-...ct-claim-6C10402695?franchiseSlug=sciencemain

    In reading the full article it is obvious that the scientists cannot prove who's image is upon the shroud, nor can it be proven when the image was created, nor can it prove that the image was created by a miraculous resurrection.
     
  23. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Probably because they thought it was a shroud that was once warped around Jesus.

    Was Jesus the only one tortured with a crown of thorns or was it a common practice? Is there proof that the image on the shroud shows a crown of thorns or wounds that could have only been inflicted by a crown of thorns? And again, even if we assume the shroud contained Jesus, it does nothing to prove the resurrection.

    What about it?
     
  24. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Ok, if you want to think that, you will; I dont agree.

    Personally, I find the Christian veneration of dried bits of what they think are saints, the "true cross', all of the other relics, real, supposed and fake, the weeping statues and so on to be more than a little creepy.

    What do you suppose is with that?
     
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  25. YouLie

    YouLie Well-Known Member

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    It is one of the most scientifically analyzed and scrutinized artifacts in the world. There is a ton of info on it. I've read some, watch a couple of videos. It's fascinating, to say the least.
     
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