Shroud of Turin

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by YouLie, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Lots of people saw Jesus perform miracles and still didn't believe, and in fact had Him killed.

    Pot, meet kettle.

    As the Bible says, God put the idea of Him and eternity on men's hearts.
     
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  2. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Very few serious historians don't believe in a historical Jesus. Even Bart Ehrman from the Jesus Seminar strongly objects to that position.

    True, but none that fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead.

    IF God exists, why is it out of the realm of possibility that He would communicate to us? We have serious scientists searching for communications from non-existent space aliens.
     
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  3. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Who says so? There are many books which give a different picture of Jesus. Yet people ignore them as they are not what they want to believe of Jesus. Why, after 30 years of life, did Jesus suddenly do miracles of healing? Were none of his kin ever sick before his ministry began- needing healing? If he healed them, why don't we hear of it. It's highly probable that Jesus was married according to the custom of the day. We are not told either way. 30 years of life and nothing except when he was 12. You take it on faith that he was a pure and innocent in many things. Sinless Son of God. There is no evidence that he was anything more than a Jewish preacher that fell foul of the Religious hierarchy and was crucified.. If anything the Shroud is proof of nothing more than a crucified man - name unknown.
     
  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jesus didn't fulfil any prophecy of the OT.. The OT 'prophecies' are astute predictions by individuals or written as history. The only belief in the OT yet to be fulfilled is the Jewish Messiah. The rest are fulfilled in the OT times.

    So God communicates with different people all over the world and gives them different messages.
     
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  5. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    It is a piece of art almost as famous as the Mona Lisa.
     
  6. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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  7. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    If you think the Messiah is someone other than Jesus, you need to pick someone who lived prior to 70AD. The OT is clear what tribe the Messiah would be from, since the temple records were destroyed in 70AD no Jew knows what tribe they are from.
     
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  8. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    According to the Talmud, the Jews themselves are the messiah.
     
  9. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How odd of God to choose the Jews.
     
  10. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    The very fact they are robustly still around thousands of years later among all those ancient people groups supports the fact they are the chosen people.
     
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  11. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    And all the other people who have been around just as long or longer?
     
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  12. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which implies God is Jewish. Although now agnostic my maternal background is Jewish and I sure don’t feel ‘chosen’. Anyhow, the very thought of being chosen by the unpredicable, vengeful and sadistic God of the Torah fills me with horror.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  13. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    אל תדאגו לגבי כל אותם הגויים.
     
  14. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member

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    Yes.. the Jews are God's Chosen.. he picked out a tribe and gave over the rest of the nations to various and sundry 70 other gods. It's about freewill and choice.. can't be true love without those.
     
  15. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member

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    The horrors are always of mankinds making.. God just steps back when he's not wanted.
     
  16. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Given we’re discussing a non-existent entity such assertions are empty. On the other hand of you swallow the standard theological fiction of an All Loving Creator things start looking contradictory.
     
  17. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    But Jesus doesn't fulfil the requirements of the Messiah either. There's no evidence that he was 'divine' in any way. His birth story is simply made up of prophecies from the OT that, in the context in which they were written, have nothing to do with Jesus. OT so-called prophecies are fulfilled in the ages before Jesus. The 'prophecies' of Daniel are simply written at the time, and about the Maccabean period. The Jewish 'interpretation' fits in completely with the events of the period. It's far to long for me to go through but it is available on line.


    According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

    There are two problems with this claim:

    1. There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
    2. Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
    3. To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:
    1. There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.
    2. Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.
    3. Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14; I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
    4. Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
    The whole problem of genealogy in the Bible is that both Matthew and Luke go back to, and Luke beyond Abraham to Adam. Which is a problem when there is no evidence that, if they ever existed, their descendants ever went into and came out of Egypt. Certainly we have 10 lost generations (430 years) of which we know nothing. If they actually existed, how many of the descendants of the sons of Jacob survived those 430 years. There is no genealogy in the Bible for that period so how could Matthew and Luke possibly know. Both genealogies are wrong - as noted above.

    The Jews will not have to know what tribe their Messiah is from. If he is the Messiah it will become evident in his actions and results.
     
  18. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member

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    Jesus wasn't divine?.. well the figure transfigured thru the Shroud fabric is our evidence that he was. and yes, Jesus was a blood descendent of David thru the line of Mary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  19. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh please. You're having a laugh. Who told you the Jews are 'God's' own people? The Jews. Who wrote the OT. claiming that? The Jews. Who made up their own History from creation to the time of the kings? The Jews.

    There is no evidence of any Abraham, Noah, Moses etc. No Exodus. It's a good story but still make-believe.
    LET'S JUST LOOK AT A COUPLE OF THOSE POINTS.

    6) The Messiah would be born of a virgin. The Hebrew Bible doesn't say that. The word translated virgin can mean other things and it doesn't refer to Jesus anyway.

    The Messiah would be preceded by Elijah the prophet. He wasn't

    That he would come out of Egypt. If Hosea is right then Jesus would be named Israel and would sacrifice to idols etc. However Luke tells us that he did not go to Egypt but returned to Nazareth. Odd, isn't it? A verse taken out of context, as usual. he OT is complete in itself. Prophecy is for the time or near future. Did God say to Hosea 'The chapter is for Israel and Egypt in the past. However v1 alone will apply to someone in the far distant future'. If someone told you that 300 years in the future a man would come to cause a catastrophic event, would that concern you.

    Jesus references to the OT.
    Jesus referenced the OT, and preached from the OT. He did so because he had been brought up in the scriptures and believed them. He had been taught them from the age of 5 until 13. Like you he believed what he had been told. Today we have understanding and knowledge he didn't have.

    Psalm 22
    has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a summary of David's life and experiences. Study that life sometime. It follows the Psalm almost perfectly. He was rejected and abused by even his own family.

    The Messiah would come according to a timetable
    Daniel 9:24-27. Fulfilled in the time of the Maccabees. Nothing to do with Jesus.

    The Messiah would be called God’s Son
    . Psalm 2 doesn't say that. Verse 7'The Lord said to me' you are my son'. Earthly. Probably written for the coronation of an earthly king, and then used for Jesus by Christianity

    Isaiah 53.One of 4'Suffering Servant' songs in Isaiah. The whole of Isaiah refers to Israel as a nation suffering persecution. It is written in Hebrew poetic storytelling language. It forsees the time when Israel will be exalted and all the nations will recognise the sufferings they have gone through. They have been pierced and wounded by nations all around. This will be the time of the Messiah.
    Why would a book devoted to Israel, God's suffering servant suddenly refer to a future person, centuries later.

    So many things in this are taken from context. to make Jesus divine. I've spent a lot of time over the years comparing these things with Jewish belief. They are right. Most of the Christian interpretation relies on taking things out of their context.






     
  20. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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  21. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Are you looking forward to being a slave like it says in Isaiah 14:1-2?
     
  22. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    David was a rotten person. He might have been OK as a boy but later on he was a real bastard.
     
  23. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Paul character gets some dialogue in which he says to hell with the genealogy argument because none of it makes any sense. The writers had gotten it so screwed up that no one could straighten it out.
     
  24. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I am constantly bewildered how any intelligent thinking person can actually believe that random verses and passages of scripture written up to 800 years (BCE) before Christianity can supposedly refer to people and events in the far distant future. (5BCE to 28 CE) The whole thing would be pointless. It's like prophesying that 2800 CE will be the end of the world. Who would care? It's hardly relevant at this time, and it's doubtful that it would be remembered even in the short term. .
    Virtually anything can be 'proved/disproved' by this method. The very fact that the Patriarchs are mythological - allegorical characters - shows this. It's rather like comparing Alice's Adventures in Wonderland with Amy Johnson's air experiences. Nonsense. Nothing in the OT refers to Jesus.
     
  25. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member

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    yeah.. we get that about "your side" along with the mischaracterization of the Bible. I don't understand how any intelligent person can doubt the existence of God the Father and Creator.
     

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