Shroud of Turin

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by YouLie, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    There's no mischaracterization of the Bible. It's simply common sense. Simple study of the OT and ancient times clearly shows up the ignorance of those who are indoctrinated.

    Tell me how Hosea 11 can possibly refer to Jesus - as the writer of Matthew says. The chapter clearly refers to ISRAEL. And Jesus was never called Israel - or went into Egypt. Indeed, Luke tells us that he returned - with Joseph and Mary - from Bethlehem to Nazareth 40 days.after his birth. (After Mary's purification). Matthew and Luke can't both be right.

    The Massacre of the Innocents never occurred. The OT reference has nothing to do with the time of Jesus.

    Study Davids life as recorded in the Bible and Psalm 22 is clearly about his own experiences.

    The mischaracterization of the Bible is from your side. As time goes on churches are beginning to realise that they have to understand the OT as it was written, not as they have been taught for 2 millenia. That modern archaeology shows the errors, as well as the truth, of facts written in the Bible. The stables of Solomon at Megiddo were not Solomons at all. They were 200 years later and belonged to Ahab. And that makes common sense as Megiddo was too far from Jerusalem to be of use to Solomon, but was in Ahabs territory.

    The OT was written by the Jews, for the Jews. It was never intended to be read by 'gentiles'.
     
    The Wyrd of Gawd likes this.
  2. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member

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    You must have a different version.. Jesus an the authors of the New Testaments cite and quote Old Testament scripture often. Trevor.. I am tired of communicating with you.. as you should be with me.. there is nothing you can say that will change my mind, and nothing I can say that will change your.. in other words , doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is just stupid.
    I am sorry for the shock you will feel when you enter the afterlife.
     
  3. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    It will be too funny if you end up as a slave in one guy's herd of 2,800 slaves for all eternity.
     
  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    As I am sorry for you. You have been well indoctrinated. Like all others I have communicated with, you cannot answer the simplest questions. How could Jesus be in Egypt and Nazareth at the same time as the Bible says. If 'Jesus' went to Egypt did he commit the sins of 'Israel' when coming out of Egypt - as Hosea says? How could Moses know about the Chaldeans ruling Ur when he had been dead several hundred years? No answers! Ah well.

    The afterlife? Do you mean the Christian afterlife, the Buddhist idea, the Taoist afterlife or another. ,

    God made Truth with many doors to welcome every believer who knocks on them. Gilbran.
     
  5. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Funny how all cultures have an idea of the afterlife. As the Bible says, God has planted eternity in the heart of man.

    That makes no sense, two opposing ideas can't both be true. As Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." He told the very religious Jew Nicodemus "You must be born again."
     
  6. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/3133/

    And you know that how?

    It was written for Jews, but is full of God's concern for gentiles. Jonah was sent to Ninevah, a gentile nation. Here are 34 OT verses mentioning gentiles, including ones about all nations being saved, later revealed as through God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ:

    https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Gentiles,-In-Ot

    Now why don't you tell us how that image got on the Shroud?
     
  7. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    The Suffering Servant in Is. 53 can't be Israel, since he is described as interceding on our behalf, being perfect, and bearing our sins. Israel was far from perfect, being in a constant cycle of apostasy.
     
  8. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    So? Other gods have said otherwise. You choose to believe what Jesus said. Others might believe what other religious leaders say. You still have no proof that Jesus was divine, or that his father exists. The Jewish god actually descends from Yahweh, son of El.
     
  9. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    But Isaiah is talking of the future Israel. The Israel that will be led by their Messiah (a human man) who will lead them to superiority. They will intercede for the rest of the nations who will come to see Israel's god as the supreme ruler.
    Israel is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah. There are 4 'Suffering Servant' songs in the book. The whole book is about Israel.
     
  10. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have proof for my worldview, and neither do you for yours, but IMHO the Biblical claims are more likely true than not.

    How did the image get on the Shroud?
     
  11. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    We disagree. What future man will be perfect and therefore able to bear our sins?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  12. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Kevin de Young simply interprets the Bible in his own way. He cannot possibly know what the writer of Matthews Gospel intended. We don't even know who wrote the book. Can he read an unknown mind?

    The references to the Gentiles are mostly instructions to the Jews how to treat the Gentiles. Forget the NT references. They make Christian claims. The Jews were supposed to be the people chosen to show the nations God's way for living. They failed so often that they were pretty useless at it. It was not intended for the Gentiles to read. It was for the Jews. Various verses are supposed to be prophecies of end times, when Gentiles will be involved - as I wrote before.

    We have an excellent history of the life of Herod. If he had committed the massacre it would have been known, and noted. Such a thing would have brought an outcry from the Jews who would have reported it to Rome, as they often did. Rome often overruled their own kings to keep the Jews 'happy'. Herod was already in the bad books of the Caesar of the time for his actions. His exploits for Rome, his building programme and his behaviour toward the Jews was already recorded. When he built a house overlooking the entrance to the Temple to keep an eye on what was going on, the Jews built a wall to block the view. Herod told them to take it down. They appealed to Rome and Caesar told Herod to leave it. There's little we don't know about Herod the Great. There's no hint anywhere, except the Bible, of a massacre. The same with the journey to Bethlehem recorded by Luke. If you know the background it's ludicrous. Hundreds of thousands of Davids descendants returning to Jerusalem and Herod doesn't record it this, the Bible doesn't record this. All we have is that there was no room in the Inn. What inn? Villages didn't have Inns. If someone needed lodging a villager would offer them hospitality - a Jewish custom. Joseph would have been lucky to get anywhere near Bethlehem.
     
  13. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Not really, it may have involved as few as a dozen infants, about what we abort every few minutes in the US.

    The Greek word most Bibles render “inn” (kataluma) doesn’t mean what we think in modern English. Tradition has obscured the true meaning here. Instead of “inn,” the word actually means “guest room.” You’ll find the same exact word used just that way in Luke 22:11 and Mark 14:14. Consistent with this, the 2011 update to the NIV now reads, “because there was no guest room available for them.”
     
  14. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Israel is often referred to in the singular - as a man.The Jews will have returned to Jahweh. You believe that Jesus was perfect. How do you know? Words in a book. 33 years without sin?
     
  15. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because He was God incarnate. Only such a perfect man be a sacrifice for our sins. Words in books tell us lots of stuff.
     
  16. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm not a Greek scholar but my interlinear Greek Testament uses the Greek for Inn - in Luke 2, but a different Greek word for guest chamber.
     
  17. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    True, but do they tell the truth? The bible tells us that Moses wrote that Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldees. How could he possibly know that. It was several centuries after his death that the Chaldeans ruled Ur as part of the NeoBabylonian Empire. He says Abraham bought land from the Hittites. But they appear after Abrahams supposed death.And they never occupied Machpelah where Abraham supposedly bought Sarai's tomb.It was Egyptian territory. Moses should have known that. He knew the Hittite History. Probably met Hittites who came to Pharaohs Palace to do trade deals..
    Of course the scribes who wrote the story circa 7th century, knew of the Chaldeans occupation of Ur as it was contemporary with their time.

    No evidence exists for the early Patriarchs etc. Words?
     
  18. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Like the rest of the Biblical authors, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

    It used to be thought that, but we've now uncovered evidence of 1,200 years of Hittite civilization.

    It was bought from a Hittite.

    Words are how we know much of what we do of ancient history. The Jewish archaeologists Nelson Glueck said that in all his archaeological investigation, he had never found one artifact of antiquity that contradicted any statement of the Bible.

    http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19631213,00.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  19. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Usual answer. The supposed Holy Spirit.

    The Hittite Empire was at its height around the 16th century BCE. It never occupied as far south as Machpelah. That was under Egyptian control and a source of constant wars. The general accepted Biblical date for Abraham was around 2109/2000BCE. Around that time many Pharaohs were ruling from Thebes - far to the south of the Nile Delta where Abraham would have fed his flocks. He would have had to undertake a hazardous 600 mile trek down the Nile. The Fertile area of the Nile was simply a strip of land they could irrigate and farm. Abraham would have been hard pressed to take his large flocks and entourage down there without opposition from the indigenous population whose crops would be in danger. Besides, do you really think Pharaoh would have been told about a 70 year old woman when he had enough princesses give him by country heads wishing to seal a deal with him. Deals between the Hittites and the Egyptians cost the Hittites 2 princesses that we know of.

    Nelson Glueck died nearly 50 years ago. We've learnt a lot more since then. As I said to another poster, Solomons stables at Megiddo turn out to be much later and probably Ahabs. That makes more sense from the location near his capital.
    Modern archaeologists question the story of David's Kingdom. It is highly exaggerated. While he may have been a 'king', the kingdom was not as large as is stated. He could not have maintained the stated kingdom.
    The walls of Jericho may have fallen, but there's no proof that a Joshua conquered it. Its walls have fallen more than once through being in an earthquake zone. It, and the surrounding area, was shaken in 1926 by an earthquake. And a recorded one in the 13th century CE.
    The conquest of Palestine was from within - not from without. Palestine was under Egyptian control. The indigenous tribes rebelled and threw out the Egyptians. The Armarna Letters show this quite clearly.

    Some modern Jewish archaeologists throw a lot of doubt upon events in the OT. Probably why 50% of Jews worldwide no longer practice their faith.
     
  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    So show me where he was wrong. There have been a lot of times where skeptics have doubted the Bible, only to be proven wrong by archaeology, such as the existence of Pontius Pilate.

    The State of Israel disagrees with you. https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/israelexperience/history/pages/megiddo - the solomonic chariot city.aspx

    I think you mean SOME archaeologists, with an anti-supernatural bias.

    Only if you disregard the OT reports. What proof would suffice? I suspect always a little more.

    So half of worldwide Jews have done an in depth study of the OT and found it wanting? Half of any cultural religion anywhere don't really follow it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  21. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Cancel
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  22. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/israelexperience/history/pages/megiddo - the solomonic chariot city.aspx

    Megiddo was destroyed in the military campaign of Pharaoh Shishak in 926 BCE, and restored during the reign of Ahab, king of Israel (ca. 874 - 852 BCE) who made it a royal "chariot city." The new city's walls were 3.5 m. thick, constructed with offsets and insets and incorporating the Solomonic city gate. Noteworthy among the structures from the period of Ahab are several large, identical buildings, covering large areas of the city. Some archeologists believe they were storehouses, barracks or market-places, but most researchers regard them as stables.

    Based on the biblical account, the stables were first dated to the reign of Solomon, but new evidence has established their date as early 9th century BCE, in the reign of King Ahab. The southern stable complex is divided into several compartments, each subdivided into three long, parallel halls: the outer halls for stalls, the corridors between them for use by the stable hands. The ceiling of the stables was supported by large, square stone pillars. Massive stone troughs stood in the stables, as well as perforated stones for tying the horses. In the middle of a large courtyard, surrounded by a stone wall, was a watering pool. It is estimated that Megiddo's stables could have accommodated 450 horses; the adjacent structures undoubtedly housed dozens of battle chariots - an impressive quantity in terms of the period.

    A 12 month study of the supposed Kingdom of David as stated in the Bible - from the Egyptian border to the Euphrates river - convinces me that David did not have the means - military and otherwise to maintain such a territory. Figures given in the Bible for his armies are ridiculous comparing the population of Palestine.

    Israel was already a tribe in Israel 300 years before 'David' Merneptah Stele. They were one of the tribes that took over the land from the Egyptians. (Armarna Letters)

    Material evidence for his reign, while a matter of intense debate among scholars, is scant. Some scholars claim to have discovered artifacts that corroborate the biblical account of David’s kingdom. Others assert that the archaeological record strongly suggests that David was not the grand ruler of a rising kingdom but merely a gifted tribal leader of a pastoral, rather than urban, society. A fragment from a stone stele mentioning the “House of David” (a reference to his political dynasty) was inscribed more than a century after the traditional date of his reign and is not accepted by all scholars.https://www.britannica.com/biography/David

    The biblical King David of Israel was known for his diverse skills as both a warrior and a writer of psalms. In his 40 years as ruler, between approximately 1010 and 970 B.C.E., he united the people of Israel, led them to victory in battle, conquered land and paved the way for his son, Solomon, to build the HolyTemple. Almost all knowledge of him is derived from the books of the Prophets and Writings: Samuel I and II, Kings I and Chronicles I.
     
  23. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Bethleham in the time of Jesus
     
  24. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's highly unlikely that there was a 'guestroom' in the house where Jesus was supposedly born. Poor houses of the day were merely single storied, 1 roomed dwellings. The family lived in a section of it and any animals in the other section. If a guest came a curtain would be raised around a spare area for the guest to sleep. That Jesus supposedly was born in one of these is based on the fact that he was laid in a 'manger'. This was a ledge that food was placed on for animals to eat. .

    We have 2 different contrasting stories for the Nativity.

    Matthew places Joseph, Mary and Jesus already in Bethlehem. Bethlehem is 3 days journey, for a man, from Nazareth. There was no reason for him to have been there. In these days it's a 2 hour drive. Then it was much further. There's no reason to suppose that he had property there. Joseph may have been of the line of David, but David was nearly a thousand years in the past. Bethlehem had gone through much since then. Had any inhabitants of Bethlehem ever returned from the Babylonian exile? We know that many Jews fled Palestine before both the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles and made for the Greek City States, Egypt and North Africa. Never to return. We know that by the history of those countries and Jewish settlements. . How many families of David's time still lived there, or were still around? And what was he doing there? His property and business were in Nazareth. That, according to Roman Law - and it was a Roman Census - is where he should have been. Tax was required on his property and business premises. The Romans didn't care about Josephs lineage, just his property.
    Luke uses the 'lineage' simply to get Joseph to Bethlehem. He ignores Roman Law. At the same time, Mary .did not even come into the equation. Luke need not have sent a 9 months heavily pregnant young girl on an arduous, and in her condition, stupid journey. Josephs property was all that counted. There's a letter in a museum somewhere from an Egyptian census taker in the Roman Province of Egypt telling people to stay at home for the census.
    Luke gives us the 'worldwide' census of Augustus. So we have not only the Jews returning to their homes, but everyone who is away from home. There is no indication of any chaos that would have arisen as literally millions of people returned home.
    As I've already said, David was 1000 years in the past. He had 20 sons that we actually know of - how many we don't. Then we have any other surviving families whose distant relatives came from Bethlehem. 25 generations have past. 25 generations of large families. And all these tens - hundreds - of thousands descending upon Bethlehem.at one time. And no mention of it. Not a twitter from Herod. Note a note from history. Tents littered from Bethlehem to Jerusalem. Census takers tearing their hair out.
    Why did the 'Magi' supposedly go the Herod. After all the star had guided them so far, and when they had finished with Herod, it led them to where Jesus lay. Why couldn't they just have followed it all the way? Of course, that would have spoilt the story and not included Herod. And the writer would have no need to send Jesus to Egypt.
    Of course Luke saw no need to send that family to Egypt. He fulfilled Jewish ritual and Law. Jesus was presented for redemption, circumcised on the 8th day. 32 days later they were on their way home to Nazareth where they remained while Jesus grew up.
    Either Jesus was in Egypt or in Nazareth.

    IMO Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Samaria - just a short walk from Nazareth. Perhaps Joseph had relatives who could aid the young Mary in her first birth. There were a primitive form of 'midwives' in those days. Women experienced in giving birth and aiding others to do so.

    Jesus was a Jewish preacher/evangelist. An early time 'Billy Graham'. Crucified for turning the people against their hypocritical religious leaders.
     
  25. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    When you write the fairy tale, you can make yourself special above everyone else. After all, it is just a fairy tale and not reality.
     

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