I don’t know why you consider focusing on language as “policing it” ..when I grew up everything was male unless otherwise Stated. As I mentioned my book was published and i interchanged my pronouns.The funny thing is one of the editors put it back to make everything male and I threw a fit and fortunately they put it back to the way I wrote it. Needless to say that particular editor was a male I am not talking about obvious jokes. But let me make fun of your wife and let’s see how funny you find it. Say you have a fat wife and I just make fat jokes. Do you think that’s funny? Let me make some racist jokes with black people around. I’m sure they’ll just crack up. Let’s make some jokes about mentally challenged kids. How about saying to the parent, “did you hear the joke about the retard?” He’ll probably crack up laughing. What I am trying to point out here is what used to be called sensitivity is nowshunned by saying we’re being too politically correct I heeded your advice about speaking up as I do that professionally. Women refer to other women as bitches the same way men do and not in a good way. Very often you will hear a woman referred to herself as a bitch taking back the word the way blacks took back the N-word. If you notice also I can use the word bitch here but I can’t use the N-word. One is an unknowledged prejudice and the other is a sanctioned prejudice
Haven't you read Orwell's 1984 and/or Rand's Anthem? These explain very well how "focusing on language" is the same as policing it, which in turn becomes thought policing. And what you are trying to say here is.. Again, it is still dependent on context; do I know the husband? Is he my childhood friend? Some black people are more tolerant than others and the same applies for parents of mentally disabled children. If you possess only an ounce of social intelligence, you can figure out when what is acceptable and when what is not. What are you suggesting? Illegalising jokes or words under the label of "hafe crimes"? Not at all the case. Political Correctness is not about emotional- or social correctness. Rather is it about a dishonest act of virtue signaling and a disgusting way of implementing censorship without actually having to do so. It is not sensitivity that is being shunned, it is spoiled and selfish "give-me-everything"-attitude that is. You know, there also used to be a time when only sticks and stines could break bones and words could not hurt you. You work to prevent bullying? School counsellor? This is not sarcasm or anything. I am just genuinely interested to know how one would work with giving advice about speaking up. I personally believe that parents have a responsibility to teach their kids not to go around calling people names.
You posit this bipolar b,or s, choice, when relational reality is much more complex and people change their moods constantly.
You are thinking like an extremist...and it’s hard to discuss . What you call policing , I call being sensitive. policing Implies you are not allowed to utter words and getting into thought police . I am talking in generalities, you are talking in extremes ....Yes I read Orwell and I taught it as well By the way there was never a time when sticks and stones could break your bones and words could never hurt you. In my book I specifically tell teachers NOT to say that. Words hurt! Telling a bullied kid, not to,let the taunts bother him/her totally disregards the internalized pain and the damage. Of course parents teach their children not to go around calling people names ...what you are being is logical and not psychological. It isn’t blaming parents at this point, it’s peer pressure I was a teacher and developed a curriculum in prejudice awareness? I am presently giving workshops to adolescents and to adults. I also wrote a book, now in its third edition, on classroom management . I’m also a senior pole dancer...ok I lied about pole dancing
I am the extremist? I just say let people have their opinions, how is that extremist? You are the one seems to be advocating censorship and that is what I call extremist. If you know your Orwell, you should know what I am talking about. I know bullying hurts. Systematic name calling with the intention of making the victim feel worthless is awful. I was told the whole "[...]words won't hurt you" thing by adults, but decided to respond with stick and stones. It helped. The bullying stopped. However, the difference between using naughty words and bullying someone is vast. Let's not confuse apples for oranges here. We still have to differ between bullying and just using a word. Wow! I'm impressed. Good job!! You seem to be a very ambitious woman.
I call you an extremist because you think that I am advocating censorship and compare me to Orwell. You seem to think using inclusive language is somehow comparable to censorship. you think that not using the n word and bitch etc are words I want banned...no, This isn’t about making words illegal , policing, this is about sensitivity.. nothing more. I am not sure whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me about systematic name calling. Beating up other kids was your way of dealing with it...Most kids don’t have that ability. Words hurt. Words are powerful. Sometimes there is very little difference between bullying and just using a word. Calling a black kid the n word (So ridiculous that I can’t use the word I want to here when it is an acceptable context)calling a kid “fat” is one word, no, it’s not always bullying but just insensitive. I had a terrific strategy in my classroom where no one ever made fun of anyone and these were very tough kids. The Strategy was brilliant..and it kills me because it wasn’t mine...it was my husbands! (And he worked on Wall Street) I left out that I taught sex education. Now that was ambitious! I could write another book on that.
Yes, inclusiveness is the worst form of censorship as it is subtle and indirect. There is no need to "raise awarenesd" about the B- and the N-word; people already know they carry sensitive connotations and that is the very reason the words are used as insults! Fnally, people and especially kids will always find ways to tease each other no matter how many words you ban. It is, thus, pointless and actually also a very dangerous path to take. Calling someone something once is equivalent of it never happening. If someone irritates you and you angrily burst out in "shut up, fatty!" it means nothing. These sort of things are not to be labelled as bullying because it only inflates the term and ignores the real victims. There are plenty of contexts where prejoratives become jokes that everybody laughs at. I have already examplified a few such occassions in previous post. Language is contextual and it is important not to forget that. If you really want to battle "insensitive languge", you need first to define what exactly that means. Otherwise, you will just find yourself fencing windmills. I thought this was already the norm in every classroom. Anyways, what happens in.the classroom is irrelevant because most namecalling and bullying takes place on the yard, where teachers cannot see. Kids are not stupid, you know. Anyways, I did not take it as this topic was about bullying, but rather as one about "naughty words" and I am.completely against "abolishing" such words because it really means nothing and an implementation of such a law would require some advanced social engineering and some really advanced thought policing.
I think it would be best for all involved if you avoided this censorship completely by ducking out of society. In this way you need not deal with such uncaring imprisonment of your ethical standards and no one else has to deal with them either.....it's a win-win.
You were totally wrong about people being aware of the B and the N-word. The proof is right here. I can use the word bitch but I’m going to use the N-word which is ****** and I am sure it will be bleeped. In my workshops I ask what the N-word is and no one wants to say it. I then say I have a woman boss and she such a B and I asked him what the b stands for and they all shout out bitch. Why do you suppose they are comfortable with one and not comfortable with the other? The word bitch is a sanctioned prejudice and often unacknowledged, the n word is acknowledged prejudice Why do you keep accusing me of banning words? Anyone is allowed to say whatever they want but that doesn’t mean I cant make people aware of the power of words and how they can define, and hurt and also laud. We call fat people “large” we call old people “seniors”etc You are correct about kids not supposed to say things in the classroom. But it goes further than that. For example a kid will read aloud and make mistakes and the class will laugh. A kid makes fun of someone and the others laugh. The strategy I use is called the sanctuary and no tacit approval. When someone makes a mistake or is being bullied they are taught that laughing is just giving approval. I didn’t realize how well it was working until one day a new girl comes in and hasno notebook or anything and I said she needed a notebook. She looked at me and said, “I’ll get one when I want… Bitch“ suddenly she runs out of the room and as I am going after her I hear the class saying, “it worked it worked we didn’t give her tacit approval.“ She was sure the class was going to laugh and instead they were silent. The best part was she never came back I always have my students evaluate me at the end of the year and almost everyone of them said they loved being in the “sanctuary” because they felt safe in my class I am going to ask you for the last time to please stop accusing me of wanting words abolished and that I want laws to do that. That is absolutely ridiculous. There’s a difference between raising consciousness and wanting words banned. I don’t like when men refer to me as a girl when I am a woman. Does that mean I want to ban the word girl or I just want to make a man aware that I am a woman and not a child.It’s interesting we have a girl get us coffee at the office but our doctor is a woman. Yes I know we go out with the girls and men go out with the boys it I am talking about terms of respect. Good discussion here. Wish you were in one of my workshops.
This depends entirely on context and culture. What a forum on the Internet has in its rules might say something about the general attitudes in society, but I still would argue using it as an argument in this conversation is invalid - PF does not allow any curse words or fowl language and although "bitch" is a pejorative, it is also the innocent name for a female dog and that would be the reason why "N" is bleeped whereas "B" is not. The "N-word" carries negative connotations in tbe US due to obvious reason, but in many other countries such as in the Middle East and South America, it is not at all a bad word. The word is considered a "no-no" here in Sweden despite the country's lack of colonial history. My point is that words are very fluent in tneir character and rarely static.Also are the cultural and mostly are the contextual. I bet a few generations ago, people would be very uncomfortable with the "B-word" too as it was a culture that sanctioned such "potty mouthness". Today, the word has become normalised and for the younger generation, the word is barely even an insult. Yes and we call women "women". It is not like "B" has become a substitute for woman. It is used to describe a certain kind of woman, a woman who is whiny, annoying and/or carries other bad characteristics. In fact, the word has even become somewhat gender neutral as also a man who is whiny is a "B". I know. I have been in school myself, you know. Geez. What a little, uncultured barbarian. How old are these kids? The line is very thin. You go, girl!
So the word bitch describes only a certain woman? Whiny? I have heard women called stuck up bitch, fat bitch, ugly bitch etc. it is a catchall Pejorative for women . My students were adolescents and they could be really cruel. But there is another story that I loved with the tacit approval concept. A very nasty teacher once said to a Chinese boy, “maybe if you understand English you would get it“ this boy was born in America and he was just very slow. The teacher came in to complain about my class. He said that one of the kids raised her hand and said to the teacher, “ that was very mean” I said that I taught my kids respect for each other and I’m proud of them .. You said the line is very thin between raising consciousness and banning words ...what words are banNed? I know the word fire is banned in the movie theater, but you seem to have a fear of legal banning of words. What words are you referring to? I am the last one who wants censorship but I do fight for sensitivity and raising consciousness. Know what I mean son?
As I pointed out in a previous post, "bitch" is more commonly thrown from woman to woman. We have all this goofing around with identity politics that is now pushing for some very ambigious hate speech laws that could very much result in a society where certain words are banned. I know everyone is different and it is important to respect that some people are more sensitive than others. Luckily, I carry enough social intelligence to know what is- and what is not acceptable in what situation. The only word worth being cautious with, imo, is the word "ugly" as that is one the can truly hurt a person and cause long term effects. It is not that physical ugliness does not exist, but calling another person 'ugly' is probably the most hurtful thing one can do. Sure, there are probably a trillion harsher pejoratives in existence, but in terms of actual damage caused, "ugly" wins because the impact of that word beats every N-, B-, C- and D-word in the world. Describing someone as "ugly" is fine, if that is what you think. But, telling it to someone's face should be avoided at all costs as it is a word that is not as easy to shake off as "bitch" or "n*gger".
You can say the word bitch is thrown around more from women to women but that doesn’t make it a fact. Bitch is a pejorative used by both men and women and it doesn’t matter the numbers. You’re making up a fact ..I guess you must have some reason that you feel this strong need to defend the word. I agree with you that calling somebody ugly to their face should be avoided and that’s because you have a raise consciousness. Hopefully one day people will realize that the word bitch is a hurtful word. Right now it is , in my opinion ,too accepted.i Find something interesting here, that you think telling someone to their face that they are ugly is not is hurtful as q woman who is being told to her face that she is a bitch . Let me guess you are not a woman. I am surprised that you think it is easier to shake off the N-word if you are black and it comes from a white person. Maybe we should ban the word ugly. You keep over and over talking about speech laws. What you were doing is creating a strong man and getting yourself all hysterical over it
Only reason that I am "feeling strongly" about the word is that I do not consider language a crime. The only regulators of language ought to be parents because it is parents and parents only who can teach their children not to use such degenerated language. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Only thing I know is that the word has become a very versatile one that no longer only means "promiscuous woman" and therefore it is important to take notice in whst context it is being used. Depends. Bad words are bad words for a reason and bad words are used specifically to hurt the receiver. "Bitch" is such a word and I assume it can hurt, however I doubt it hurts even half as much as "ugly". As for my gender, it should not really be relevant, but I am.not shying away with it and have it stated on my profile that I am male. Everyone is different and has different levels of "offense tolerence". No, you are the only one going hysterical here.
What you are guilty of doing is creating a straw man saying that certain language is a “crime”. It isn’t! I also find it extremely naïve that you believe that parents can actually control what their children say when among their friends. I taught adolescents and the language that came out of the mouths was definitely something I am sure parents told them not to say....And in my classroom you bet I will control degenerate language. But what they do outside of my classroom I have no control over. Bitch was not a promiscuous woman..it was just a perjorative catch all. The word slut or tramp or tart or easy or loose or whore are just a few labels for promiscuous women, By giving these women these labels it is controlling women sexuality. What is the “promiscuous male ” called? Lucky?? So you think ugly hurts more than bitch....oh that makes bitch ok then? Who is to define what hurts more? I remember when I taught younger kids the worst thing they could say was “your mother“ those were fighting words I am not getting hysterical here , I am just trying to raise your consciousness. The same way when black people didn’t want to be called Negroes or colored. It took time for people to realize and respect what a group wanted to be called.
Most people don't need mommy and daddy to teach them how to be civil. It never did mean a promiscuous woman! What in the hell are you talking about? Learn how to use google and look it up. I guess you're an expert at ugly?
"The bitch told my slut girlfriend to mind her manners. I didn't mind her manners." "The slut left after having sex with me and drove to her home to have sex with her husband." Is that a bitch or slut? I'm not sure. Maybe both. "The bitch called me a slut for stopping at the woman's house while she was alone and having sex with her before I came home from work". Just trying to properly use the terms in a sentence. Don't know if I did use them properly.
