Snips & Snails & Puppy Dog Tails

Discussion in 'Animal Welfare' started by Smartmouthwoman, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    This topic was discussed on another forum and resulted in some very interesting debate about limiting the govt's involvement in our everyday lives.

    How many of you are aware that it's actually against the law the snip off puppy tails in many countries? Standards for Dobermans have been changed so floppy ears are the new standard. Docking of tails and cropping of ears is going by the wayside in the name of political correctness and animal rights.

    Here's a summary of the situation in the UK. What do you folks think... do dogs need laws to protect them from their owners? :shocked:

    *********

    Today, many countries ban cropping and docking because they consider the practices unnecessary, painful, cruel or mutilation. In Europe, the cropping of ears is prohibited in all countries that have ratified the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals. Some countries that ratified the convention made exceptions for tail docking.

    Show dogs are no longer docked in the United Kingdom. A dog docked before 28 March 2007 in Wales and 6 April 2007 in England may continue to be shown at all shows in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland throughout its life. A dog docked on, or after, the above dates, regardless of where it was docked, may not be shown at shows in England and Wales where the public is charged a fee for admission. Where a working dog has been docked in England and Wales under the respective regulations, however, it may be shown where the public is charged a fee, so long as it is shown “only to demonstrate its working ability”. It will thus be necessary to show working dogs in such a way as only to demonstrate their working ability and not conformity to a standard. A dog legally docked in England, Wales, Northern Ireland, or abroad may be shown at any show in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

    In England and Wales, ear cropping is illegal, and no dog with cropped ears can take part in any Kennel Club event (including agility and other nonconformation events). Tail docking is also illegal, except for a few working breeds; this exemption applies only when carried out by a registered veterinary surgeon.

    Legal Status by country

    *********

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I dunno. Seems like too much nanny-state for my taste. How about you?
     
  2. OmegaEnigma

    OmegaEnigma Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me like the conservative lack of empathy for other living beings is showing again. How about this, we allow people to do this to their own babies instead? Would that be OK?
     
  3. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    I don't know why it brings to my mind the brewing debate over circumcision of boys, opponents calling it cruel mutilation and other such nonsense. My thinking is that it's now cool to protest just for the sake of protesting because the causes that are being protested are getting lamer all the time.
     
  4. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    Read my post. I just broached on that.
     
  5. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have two boxers with docked tails, both docked before I got them. I will never own boxers again as it is pointless and for aesthetics only.

    I certainly do not think that refusing to inflict pain, amputation, and reconstructive surgery on our pets simply so they will fit some invented norm is "nanny state".
     
  6. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    Dogs aren't humans. Your suggestion doesn't make sense.
     
  7. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    You will never own boxers again because their tails were docked?

    Sorry, you lost me there.
     
  8. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, I want a hunting dog eventually, but allow me to clarify.

    I will never again own an animal whose looks have been altered to fit some made up norm.
     
  9. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    So you'll never again own a dog who is a product of selective breeding or gene manipulation. I have the perfect dog for you, then:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. signcutter

    signcutter New Member

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    Apples and oranges dude... selective breeding and gene manipulation do not require scissors and surgical amputation.
     
  11. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is not what I said. Clearly you have invented a position, assigned it to me, and then argued against it.
     
  12. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    Right. And Branch Paulinians never do that.
     
  13. mikezila

    mikezila New Member

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    if my kid had a tail, i think it would get docked.
     
  14. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    Not if Nanny Government has something to say about it.
     
  15. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    Well the foreskin is where most of the pleasure comes from during sex, it also acts to aid penetration, retracting during sex - which is why so many Americans need lube. So if you want your son to enjoy sex less, get him circumcised...

    But back on topic, there's no value in docking trails and cutting the ears of dogs - which is why it should be banned.

    The notion of the OP, that this is "Nanny State" simply furthers the opinion of some, that she's not that bright...
     
  16. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    We shoud treat our pets with a lower standard, regarding cutting them up?
     
  17. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    Docking a dogs tail and altering their ears is animal cruelty and should be banned.
     
  18. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There seems to be something of a general, cultural higher regard for the well being of animals in the UK than in the USA (or some elements of the USA, certainly). I don't regard it as 'nanny-state' to have laws against people assaulting or murdering other people, and don't regard animal protection laws as 'nanny-state' for exactly the same reasons. Whether the difference is to do with religious fundamentalism in some way or not I don't know (but that is one possible explanation, the US being far more fundamentalist than the UK, with people more often tending to see humans and animals as entirely separate types of 'creation'), but people here are less prone to consider humans as being the only creatures with feelings and consciousness that are worthy of some legal protection from cruelty and torture - our animal protection laws have long been much stricter than those in the US.

    There is an important cultural difference that should also be noted, of course - ear cropping has never been a widespread practise at all in the UK, and the dobe seen in the second picture of the OP would be totally unknown over here anyway. The ban on that will have no effect, because it is only a legal confirmation of what is common practise here, and always has been.

    Edited to Add: Ear cropping has apparently been illegal in the UK since 1899!

    Tail-docking is a different thing - that did go on widely, in certain breeds in particular, for purely cosmetic reasons, and there was a widespread feeling (including among many who owned those breeds that were docked for that reason, and who had to conform in order to conform to show standards) that it was an unnecessary infliction of pain on the animals. There was some opposition to a ban on it from working dog owners (who dock for the dog's own future safety), and so the law incorporates an allowance for that kind of thing to continue, but what was banned was unnecessary docking for no reason other than 'it looks nice' (and the measure had widespread support, including from many (not all, of course) breeders/owners of those breeds that were commonly docked). As it hapens, my ex-wife (and my kids) have a Rottie with a non-docked tail, and I can assure you that the dog suffers no ill effects whatsoever from not having had its tail painfully cut off as a baby!

    In terms of the 'nanny-state' issue, I think most of us (on both sides of the atlantic) will agree that the state has a role in passing laws against one person violating the well being of another by deliberately inflicting pain (assault, murder, etc.). Where we seem to disagree is on whether animals, as living creatures who can feel pain, fear, etc., are also deserving of some level of legal protection from those who would seek to inflict pain and do harm to them for no good reason.

    I for one fully support the ban on docking and cropping, and was among those campaining for such a ban to be introduced (in fact, campaigning on various dog legislation issues was what started me off using internet forums in the first place). I hate 'nanny-statism' with a passion, but I don't see this as that at all, any more than I see it as 'nanny-statism' to have a law that says someone else shouldn't randomly attack me on the street and punch me repeatedly in the face because they don't happen to like the way I look!
     
  19. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And that right there is the cultural difference illustrated.

    No, dogs aren't humans, but they are still living beings capable of feeling pain, and they deserve due consideration on that basis. That doesn't mean humans and animals have 'equal rights' to people, clearly, but just they should have basic 'rights' (legally enforceable) to be treated with basic humane decency as sentient living creatures, and not just as unfeeling inanimate objects.
     
  20. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let me turn this around the other way with a question. Set aside for a moment the issues of legal measures, and tell me -

    What exactly is wrong with this dog?

    Or this one?
    [​IMG]

    Is there anything 'wrong', other than 'it's just not the look I'm used to', or 'I just don't think it looks as good'?

    Is that really good moral justification for inflicting pain and torture on a young animal?
     
  21. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    Thx for the response, ceny. As I'm sure you've noticed, someone bumped up a year-old thread on the same subject... in the HUMAN RIGHTS section.

    You're absolutely right about dogs being living creatures that should be treated humanely.

    You're absolutely wrong to put the welfare of dogs in the same class as human beings. As long as PEOPLE are suffering on this planet, nobody should be making MORE laws to protect animals. If your govt is involved in writing laws about docking tails, they don't have enough to do. Just my opinion. Obviously, lots of folks disagree. ;)
     
  22. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    Nothing wrong with the dogs. In fact, they look a lot like the dogs I prefer (and own 4)... mixed breeds.

    That's the goal of the left anyway, isn't it... eliminate the top breed? Make us all equally middle-of-the-road, nobody important? Forbidding docking & cropping of dogs is a good first step.

    The dog's owner should be able to choose what their dog looks like. Funny, the govt doesn't seem to mind that human 18 yr olds mutilate their bodies with tat's and piercings, but worry about dog tails. We've lost our sense of priorities.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    What the (*)(*)(*)(*) has legislation protecting animals got to do with the Left?

    Christ - people say the most moronic things!
     
  24. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Tell you what.

    You give a dog a consent form and a release of liability, like human adults have to sign at tattoo parlors, and if they can sign their names they can get their body modifications. Sound fair?
     
  25. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    Tail docking and ear cropping are not the worst of what is happening to dogs. Breed standards that have placed form before function are doing more damage to some breeds. Pekingese with such short snouts they cannot breathe properly, over-angulated stifles in German Shepherds, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels with skulls too small for their brains (very painful), Bulldogs that cannot give birth without c-sections, and the list goes on.

    I breed Yorkshire Terriers and have all my pups tails docked. It is done at a very early age and is not traumatic for the pups. It's the breed standard, I prefer the look and it doesn't harm the dog. Those some may disagree about the tail docking, the YT is one breed whose health has not been affected by a whimsical breed standard. It really all comes down to the stewardship of the parent club for a breed.

    Here's a graphic example of just how much a breed can change if a club is determined to do so. These skulls show the Bull Terrier's 'evolution' over the course of about 100 years.

    [​IMG]

    Or how about the English Bulldog?

    [​IMG]
     

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