So how is Bernie going to get them to do that

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by logical1, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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  2. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ahhh playing with numbers.

    NATO'S funding to run the organization is fairly low. Each countries actual funding to defense is another story.
     
  3. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We arent paying for their military, but we are paying for their defense, and the defense of most of the other NATO nations that dont pony up... so they can spend more on social programs.
     
  4. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    No, we're not paying for their defence. We just have an insane racketeering system embedded with our military. Germany, Fance, the UK, wtc could 1v1 pretty much any nation in a conventional war. The US can do the same while spending 100x as much money then when anyone questions it plays the 'we defend Europe' card to explain away the discrepancy.
     
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  5. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Right, but each country pays for its own defense. We don't pay for Germany's defense budget.
     
  6. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    How much are we paying for their defense exactly? Do you have any exact numbers? Is it 10 billion, 50 billion, 100 billion?
     
  7. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    By all means we screw doctors, nurses, technicians, cut back on the available number of ct scanners, MRI machines, reduce funding for new drugs and other treatments. Why should anyone volunteer for that?
     
  8. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Far LESS than you are paying NOW!
     
  9. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    To be fair he did admit that taxes were going to have to be raised in order to get that healthcare. So really he has acknowledged that its not "free" in the general sense of the word. And I'm pretty sure that no one actually believes it will be "free" as in no one has to pay for the healthcare period forever and ever. "Free Healthcare" is just a mantra, a misnomer, but everyone knows that. All that he's advocating for is to give everyone, no matter what the situation, the ability to get not just emergency care, but also preventative and follow up care where the price is spread out across everyone in the country.

    Essentially he's thinking like this:

    If Person A has a major surgery done that costs 1 million dollars then that is too expensive for one person to handle unless they're rich. However if you spread 1 million dollars across 300 million people then that is just $300 per person. Much more affordable. (*note: I just threw numbers out there, didn't check math, nothing, just using example to explain a thought process).

    So instead of arguing about semantic nonsense why not just argue the meat of the matter? Bernie Sanders wants to raise taxes on everyone in order to give everyone cheaper healthcare because everyone will be chipping into the same bowl.

    And really, its not a bad idea per se. It makes sense. Which is why many people are for it. About the only ones that aren't for it are those that A: Don't trust the government to handle it properly, or B: Don't trust government period, or C: are greedy bastards that have no empathy for anyone and only thinks of them and theirs or D: are worried about the logistics and resources available for such a plan. Or some combination thereof.

    Personally I fall in the A and D category. I do believe its a good idea and worth exploring though.
     
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  10. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    Why is it so difficult to comprehend that by paying more in tax, the majority will actually save money? I am so glad in the UK (whilst we have a number of selfish traits in our society) we commonly agree that it is better for everyone to have access to basic healthcare, regardless of status.
     
  11. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Which doesn't even mention the rent we pay on bases in Germany for the 40k Troops we have there or the for the airforce bases we have in England and the fact that with out US aid no country in Europe has the force projection capacity to move more than maybe a combat brigade and that's stretching it. How much more do you think it would cost Germany if they had to pay and equip another forty K troops and replace US air sets in Britain to say nothing of other US assets that we are commited to have on hand withing 24 to 48 hours.
     
  12. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    But that is what health insurance does now. Spread costs and Bernie's plan is going to reduce the amount of money coming into the system almost by default. Note medcicare costs the wife and I four hundred fifty bucks a month. Out of a combine income of 1900.
     
  13. logical1

    logical1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    BS!!!!!! I have Medicare avantage from my former employer now that I am retired, and only pay a small co-pay!!!!
     
  14. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Haha.

    Right.

    If Russia wanted Germany, they would have zero chances of stopping them.

    Zero.

    https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/Russia/Military
     
  15. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And these countries skimp on defense because they know the alliance will have their back, namely the United States.
     
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  16. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This isnt cheap.

    http://www.kelebekler.com/occ/bas_gb.htm
     
  17. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    You were asking about US in general, not just YOU in particular!

    Stop moving the goalposts!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  18. thoughtprocess

    thoughtprocess Well-Known Member

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    I think you don’t understand the proposal. You get money taken out your check already for private insurance. The tax will be considerable less. You save money. A public option is flawed because you can’t usurp private hospitals. So the hospitals have full authority to say we don’t take that. That is their right. And it has and will happen because insurance companies will make sure of it. But with Medicare for all the pool of money will be fought for. So you can go to a specialist in any state and save money. Without insurance companies the people have the influence and money is to be made so hospitals will cater to the profits and compete. Capitalism only works when the people who spend do just that spend. The public option is a fallacy the only way you can truly choose a doctor anywhere in the country is Medicare for all any thing less is a joke because the rich abuse the system because they are allowed to by law. And yes they will always be allowed to grow it’s just they will only have the people to grow from.
     
  19. thoughtprocess

    thoughtprocess Well-Known Member

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    Duh like smart bosses. We pay all that money out and that’s our Medicare for all. And other countries they have universal healthcare, infrastructure, wage increases etc. It’s the establishment who made those agreements and trade deals and last I checked Bernie was the only one criticizing them. Even Israel and he’s Jewish. Those other countries are doing just what big business is doing to the American people. That’s taking advantage of the corrupt establishment. Progressives never were in power but get all the blame just like minorities. The people who had the power convinced people the others are to blame but they always had the power. Now it’s time to give it up because of a history of failures.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  20. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    The only way to do so is to cap pay for medical professionals and medical companies. And when you do that you lose the best and brightest within that sector and your R&D suffers dramatically.

    No one is going to invest billions of dollars into drugs, new procedures and medical technologies that may not even get fda approval when you’re going to cap their ability to profit. They will invest their money elsewhere and R&D will suffer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  21. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Health insurance only spreads the cost among the amount of people in your group or among those signed up with your insurance carrier depending on what plan you have. At most that's a few thousand people. Compare that to 300 million people.

    As for your medicare costs, that 450 bucks is actually 225 bucks a month per person. In Alabama its $488 per person for private health insurance. In Alaska its $614. The average over all across the whole of the US is $511. Here's a list if you want to view it: LINK: Average Cost of Health Insurance (2020)

    So you're doing pretty good on Medicare. Be thankful you aren't paying for private health insurance.
     
  22. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    And yet there are plenty of countries out there that are doing just fine researching new procedures and medical technologies and with a UHC. I don't know if they've capped the pay for medical professionals and medical companies though. Either way, that they do plenty of research and in some ways surpass the US in R&D, life span, healthiness etc etc shows that your statement isn't totally based in what is actually happening.
     
  23. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    That's only A&B if I had to go for C & D we'd be looking at another 200 a month at least we do without because I'm Vietnam Vet and the wife is a card carrying Cherokee. Most couples do not have that advantage.
     
  24. Quantum Nerd

    Quantum Nerd Well-Known Member

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    Same as the Trump tax cuts: Put it on the national credit card.
     
  25. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    We spend about 25 billion on army bases around the globe. Germany is one of many countries we have bases in. So we probably spend a few billion every year on German base operations. Relative to that we spend 3.5 trillion every year on healthcare.
     

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