Social standards and Judgment.

Discussion in 'Civil Liberties' started by robini123, Jun 3, 2012.

  1. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    There seem to be two sets of law in the land... one is governmental and one is social. The governmental law is enforced by law enforcement agencies and is based on Federal, State, County, and or City ordinances. While social standards are decided and enforced by society with no legal basis other than Freedom of Speech.

    I am seeking to better understand the different reasons people judge one another. Specifically why some choose to judge others on the superficial... the way a person looks for example. I welcome all input, but am looking specifically for people who have no problem openly judging another based solely on something superficial.

    I have some ideas and opinions here, but out of fear of biasing the topic I have started, I will wait to get some input before I add to the discussion.
     
  2. Catenaccio

    Catenaccio Banned

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    I have no problem judging another based solely on something superficial.
     
  3. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Why, please explain with an example.
     
  4. Catenaccio

    Catenaccio Banned

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    Well you mention the way someone looks. Everyone judges based on appearance, some to different degrees. People who are over-weight, people who dress inappropriately, smokers, and those who under-dress; encountered them all when I started at my current location and they're not the kind of people I approached when looking for friendly co-workers. I could forever add onto that list.
     
  5. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    OK I understand. I think we are all the same on that point. But it is one thing to not hang around someone because the way they dress, and it is another to walk up to them and for example say "the way you dress makes you look like a slut... don't you have any self respect?". Myself, I think those kids with the saggy pants look ridiculous, but never have I or will I walk up to someone dressed like that and tell them that I think they look ridiculous. Its a free country and so long as their way of dress does not break any applicable law... I just could not care less.

    We all judge, but what I am trying to understand here are those who do not keep their judgment to themselves but openly ridicule those they see as "different" from the social standard.
     
  6. Catenaccio

    Catenaccio Banned

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    Oh, so you're looking for that. Those people are typically jerks. Couldn't help you with insight on them.
     
  7. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Hm, I can't get a bite from a single judgmental person. I am left wondering if it is out of cowardice or perhaps I dramatically overestimated the number of judgmental people in our society... I hope that it is the latter.

    Here is the point of this thread. I have been judged my whole life, not continually, but often enough that it stands out and really bugs me. I am a man in my 40's, have long hair, listen to Heavy Metal, have a wife who does not wear a bra, I play D&D, I have CFS and Fibro but do not look sick, and because of my disability I live off of social welfare. Now what do all these things have to do with anything? I have been judged on all of them by people.

    Now here is the kicker, I have no criminal record to speak of, I do not use drugs, I hardly ever drink, I obey the laws of the land, I am honest even to the point of my own self detriment, and I am accepting and do not judge people on superficial things. But when I am judged do people take the time to get to know me, to see any of the positive? No. They see the long hair and the braless woman on my arm while I am wearing my World of Warcraft tee-shirt and they blindly judgment.

    People should be judged by the content of their charictor... think a wise man one said that (-;
     
  8. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    While I was reading this, I was thinking to myself that I was going to reply telling you that I would not judge you.
    But then I came to the last part about the World of Warcraft tee-shirt...

    If you wear that T-shirt, people are going to assume you just play video games all day and have yourself to blame for most of your problems.


    As a racial separatist, I believe race is an important attribute of an individual, and seek the ideal of ethnic purity, and the preservation of certain indigenous cultures. You asked.
     
  9. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    But why is it moral/ethical to pursue such an end?
     
  10. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Why would people make that assumption? A judgment like that seems uninformed and shallow. People are more than the clothes that they were. On the other side of the coin, just because a person dresses in a socially acceptable way does not mean that they are a good person. Many at a glance dress the part, but behind it all they hide a secret life that they hope never see the light of day. Time and time again in the news we see some well dress person who fits well into socially acceptable standards outed for partaking in some vice. So I get judged for wearing a WOW tee, while others get away with cheating on their wives and being addicted to porn but get away with it because they look socially acceptable and can hide their hypocrisy well.

    We all have things we can be judged on, that is why I am very cautious in my judgment of others. I would rather live and let live.

    Here you are going into a serious topic that goes beyond the scope of this thread. I believe to judge another based on race is superficial, but its ramifications are very serious... even historically deadly. And all that is another debate. I am trying to stick to lesser superficial judgment like the WOW tee.
     
  11. BobbyT

    BobbyT New Member

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    I believe the boat has already left the dock on this one. I'm curious how many ethnicities you believe there are and, of those, how many you believe are "pure"? As soon as any population of people comes in contact with another population of people (e.g., if you're of European ancestry, you likely have some mongol in you somewhere back there), intermingling occurred. Always has, always will. I'm not sure how far back you'd like to go to get to a place of "ethnic purity," but I don't believe you can get there. And you sure as heck aren't getting there going forward. There will be Romeo/Juliet relationships between ethnicities as long as there are people populating this planet, sorry bud.
     
  12. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    People judge each other based on superficial criteria because it's a quic and efficient way to determine if the other person is a friend or foe and is one who shares our same values.

    An obvious superficial criteris is race (skin color). For instance, during WWII when we were fighting the white German Nazis our politicians and military leaders had more affinity with them than toward their own fellow black citizens and soldiers. We didn't even want our black troops to fight the Nazis because that would mean that blacks were killing whites. That ran counter to our domestic racial policies.

    On the other hand we treated the Japanese worse than we treated the Nazis because they were so different in appearance and in culture.

    We were mostly neutral toward the Italians.

    The way people dress determines how easily we accept or reject them. Clothes do determine the man. What people wear determine their level on the hierarchy ladder. Consider the Pope. People could recognize the man as the Pope without his fancy robes, hat, and red shoes. But they wouldn't accept or respect him if he showed up in St Peter's in shorts wearing a Hawaiian shirt and flip flops. You have to dress the part.
     
  13. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with dressing the part in a professional capacity... but in our off time what does it really matter? If people don't like me simply because I have long hair then I would say that they are shallow and not the type of person that I would want to know.
     
  14. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

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    Of course, people make judgements on superficial evidence. I saw a man walking down the street wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt and I assuemd his Geoffrey Dahlmer t-shirt was in the wash. I would say the odds are, oh, 1000 to 1 that he's a left-wing ninny. I saw a man about sixty-five wearing a t-shirt that said, "Feminist and proud of it" and I thought he was a man truly desperate to get laid. And, the woman who came to a job interview wearing her fish/bicycle=woman/man t-shirt didn't get the job.

    And, I would assume that a man who has changed his name to Dasheem is not someone you want to discuss equal rights with. I saw a man wearing a union t-shirt a month ago. I didn't strike up a conversation with him, either. I probably won't chat with a guy whose face is heavily tattooed and if the tattoos saying anything about Hitler I was actively avoid him.

    I tend to think people who won't tell you their name, where they're from, and what kind of work they've done are hiding.

    Oh, and freedom of speech is a concept that limits the government and not individuals. Private individuals can legally get punched in the nose for exercising free speech. If you're a married man, you well know the penalty for free speech is worse than a punch in the nose.
     
  15. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Wish I remembered the news show I saw this on, but an ex neo-nazi was interviewed. He talked about beating up minorities just for fun and how he came to see that racist and homophobic hate had come to rule his life... so he turned away from that life and now tours the Country giving lectures on hate. The interview noticed that he still had a swastika on his forearm and asked "why do you still have the swastika and why to you display it in the open?" His answer was "so I never forget when I come from."

    So I guess the moral of the story is be careful when judging a book by its cover. But with that said, if I see a guy walking down the street with a swastika on his arm... I would probably avoid him.

    Ya? In Boise Idaho you punch someone because you did not like what they said... you end up in jail on assault charges. Freedom of Speech is taken very seriously in the U.S.
     
  16. roadwarriortim

    roadwarriortim New Member

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    what is a apatheist libertarian if you dont mind me asking
     
  17. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I give up, what is a apatheist libertarian?
     
  18. Diogenes Lantern

    Diogenes Lantern New Member

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    Part of human survival is about "judging" situations and of course, we base that *solely* on history.
    for example, if you know for sure one section of town is very dangerous to walk through at night, you likely have the common sense to not do it. But it is really based on "probabilities" in our own mind, which we base on *history*, and sometimes that history of our own personal experience is personal just to ourselves.

    Now, I may know from my experience there is a real bad guy on Elm street in the early evening so I avoid walking there. Meanwhile, on some particular night, the bad dude may not be even there, yet I go around Elm st. anyway, based on my "judgement" by taking Maple street and yet run into severe trouble with some *other* crazy dude. FAIL!

    So it is not perfect how we "judge" but it is somewhat valid and perfectly natural, IMO, because man's survival is quite literally at stake. Nature/God provided us with this survival mechanism so I guess it is valid, even if it turns out wrong sometimes. I guess it is better than pure randomness.

    HOW THAT ALL TRANSLATES:

    Let's suppose my personal life experiences *just by luck* have taught me that red-headed people can be weird, troublesome people, for the most part. nasty dispositions and just not to be trusted. And I only base that on the twenty or so redheads that I personally interacted with. that is all I know.

    So I meet a redhead and right away I say, "here we go, another crazy redhead" and I avoid him/her.

    Turns out that *particular* redheaded person is a peach. I lose! FAIL

    and that is the way it goes, sometimes. you try not to be judgmental but it is too natural a thing for us to do *sometimes*

    Did I babble too much ? LOL

    BTW, in my life, it just so happens I never sat with a group of brothers (afros) that I didn't get along with.
    are all afros good? no, not all of any group of people are good.

    but it will always be in my mind now, that they are all to be trusted *until proven otherwise*

    Hope it helps
     
  19. Alucard

    Alucard New Member Past Donor

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    Both Governmental and social laws have to be tolerant of each other.
     
  20. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not feel that I am judgmental, but I can usually tell quite a bit about a person from their appearance.

    There are three levels, the first being the least important. Style, behavior, and character.

    STYLE is what you wear and the category you place yourself within. Beatnik, Power Player, Grunge, Yuppie and so on. Its usually pretty easy to see where the person places themselves style-wise. This tells you about the kind of people the person would prefer to associate with much more than it tells you about them. It ascribes them to a certain stereotype.

    BEHAVIOR is the way you interact with others. Loud, quiet, outgoing, introverted, serious, fun-loving and so on. This tells you how someone wants to be treated by others. Some want to be leaders, some followers. Some want to make people think, some want to make them laugh. Some want to just enjoy others company and enthusiasm, some want to be the center of attention. This tells you how the person sees themselves and how they want to fit in.

    CHARACTER is all the little things about yourself you overlook. Kind, overbearing, thoughtful, self serving, self effacing and so on. This is what comes out about a person whether they intend it or not. If a person cares little about themselves they will often be dirty or unhealthy in appearance. Whether a person is helpful or ignores other peoples little problems can show the value the person places on social classes or other people in general. What the person becomes exited about during conversation will tell you what they spend most of their time thinking about.

    The biggest problem with judging others is filtering out their judgement of yourself. Its hard to understand the true nature of anyone who especially likes or dislikes you.
     
  21. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe how you perceive another is how the other person sees themself? If one is seen as a negative and treated accordingly, does that mean the person is actually the negative, or just perceived as a negative? For example if a woman dressed in what one views as provocative and is judged as a slut, does that mean she is actually a slut or just perceived as a slut?

    By the way, thanks for reviving the thread, 2012 was a while ago and I have since come to some conclusions on the issue.
     
  22. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no way to know exactly how another person perceives themselves. Self deception is the most effective kind, so understanding the reality of another is immensely more important than understanding how they see themselves.

    People react quickly to other peoples judgements of them. If a person is perceived as a negative it is very hard to break that mold. Others can see their actions in a negative light no matter what those actions are. If one person in the group is willing to give them a chance though it can be enough for them to regain acceptance. That's more about social dynamics than it is individual judgement, if only one person in a group has a negative opinion of someone they either change their opinion to match the others or go on a political campaign to discredit them. If only one persons opinion bothers someone a whole lot, they have a massive ego problem.

    Maybe what you are dealing with in the thread is "stereotype", not really judgement. People that generally depend on stereotypes to judge others often have no intuitive ability, they can only judge by what they see. I tend to relegate stereotype to the bottom level of judgement, it tells you what style the person is comfortable in and really nothing else. Provocative cloths could be a sign of a theatrical carefree nature, or equally they could be a sign of insecurity and a desperate attempt to fit in; it depends more on the circumstance and surroundings they chose to dress that way in.
     
  23. Korben

    Korben Banned

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    I'm pretty judgmental and have done things like that. For example I see a guy wearing his hat crooked and say something like "hey man, your hats crooked, I wouldn't want you to going around looking like an idiot". I do it just for fun though, not like I really give a crap.


    I'd sure as heck judge you, a lot of that I'm not going to see in a casual encounter but what I would see I'd absolutely judge. For example 40's with long hair says a lot unless it's really nice hair and you wear it really well. I'm assuming it isn't and you don't. It says lazy and unemployed, I had wicked long hair, then I graduated high school, just the way of the world. Long hair on men isn't acceptable for almost all decent professions and most men. Some of this is downright practical, long hair is dangerous for most blue collar workers, it's of course impractical in the military, and inappropriate in business. Notice this is something that is a choice YOU made, I'm judging you on very practical matters relating to a choice.

    The wife, I'm assuming again that she does not have either perfect tits, or no tits. In which case not wearing a bra makes her look very disheveled, like she doesn't care about her appearance. This again is a choice and a bad one, appearance is even more important for women then it is for men, it again says she's very likely lazy and unemployed.

    These choices show the world the content of your character.
     
  24. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Who decides the reality of another, the observer or the observed? I argue as I am the worlds leading authority on me that I am in the best position to define myself. I often allow others to define themselves rather than apply my perspective of them to them? My perspective is my reality which may or may not be in line with the reality of another. I have found that it is rare for another to judge me in a way that reflects my reality.
     
  25. TBryant

    TBryant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Exactly why the deceit works so well.

    What happens is that each of us defines what we think a good person is. Then we edit out everything we do that doesn't match up. We forget or forgive ourselves for the things we do wrong. We believe that our weaknesses are "human" and our mistakes are unintentional.

    Truthfully we are creatures of habit. Our patterns of behavior repeat, and a smart enough person can most likely predict our actions as well as we can (maybe better).

    Do other people have the right to judge you? No. But they will.

    The trick is--- can you see yourself well enough to know when their judgement is right, and when it's wrong?
     

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