Solar panels make hydrogen

Discussion in 'Science' started by FivepointFive, Mar 4, 2019.

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  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, there are all sorts of significant measurements of this application that I don't know.

    My first question might be fuel cost per mile. Wiki for toyota Miara appears to have only one fuel price indication - $1,250/year. Toyota Prius EPA numbers seem to indicate something closer to $700/year for regular hybrid. If that's a legit comparison and they are using some EPA standard for mileage/year (?!?), then the Miara doesn't do well on fuel cost. Plus, the control of oxidation is complex and uses air - so I'd like to hear about how expensive it is to maintain.

    I'm not so worried about tank explosions in cars - the EPA requires significant testing for that sort of thing. Commercial applications don't necessarily have tanks that are designed to withstand car crashes and probably aren't monitored as closely - as we just don't have that level of interest in monitoring commercial safety.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, but one would have to compare the costs all the way from fuel to miles. The distribution of cost could be different for different power trains. Batteries are getting better, but they're still pretty horrendous to manufacture/recycle. I suspect that an honest accounting would mean more of the costs of batteries should be internalized - rather than landfills of highly toxic garbage, whatever we do to ensure access to rare elements, etc.

    And, scale would cause price reductions.
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    What I'm saying is that a fuel cell that is competitive with a tank of gas, is probably half a $million or more.

    As I said earlier, I looked at using a fuel cell for a comparatively small application, more like 5-10 HP for an hour, and that was going to be over $100K.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The price of a Toyota Miara is under $60K.

    I don't believe they are selling Miaras with "batteries not included"!

    That's a serous price tag, but nowhere near half a million.
     
  5. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    SOB!!! That's fantastic. The price must have taken a dramatic drop in the last ten years. It wasn't THAT long ago that I seriously looked at buying an industrial grade fuel cell. But then this isn't an industrial unit. This is intended for broader use. So the economy of scale factors in. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota is making a bet and actually losing money on these right now.
     
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  6. FivepointFive

    FivepointFive Banned

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    I worked with a company that made thermodynamic fuel cells.. they put energy in to make cooling.. It was a brief employment.. like 3 weeks

    They thrived off the govt research teat.. looked to me like their sheat didn't work as advertised

    It was an eye opener for me.. Green Scientists Con Men do exist

    But hell.. I am one to talk... I do think I may have a patentable idea for a Vertical Axis Wind Turbine
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It's not always easy to determine the best investment portfolio.

    Private investment corporations have the very same issue.
     
  8. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    You don't know much about high pressure tanks. High pressure air tanks (with nitrogen and oxygen primarily) are dangerous. A high pressure hydrogen tank would have all the problems of high pressure gas, along with the flammability. Think more like a aerosol can being punctured.

    I've seen what happens (in photos) to a dive shop when a 3000 PSI scuba tank has it's valve knocked off. Cinderblock walls get holes in them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  9. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I agree that we have crash testing that should be significant enough to eliminate this as a serious issue for automobiles.

    If it's not, those standards will be raised to fix the issue.
     
  11. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Presumably none. But it does help to put things into perspective. Loosely speaking, driving is about 1700 times more dangerous than pressure tanks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  12. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Yes, and only 17 people were killed by them in a year. You can't argue with math. Pressure tanks are located everywhere from hospitals to welding shops.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that.

    No car can be sold if it hasn't gone through crash testing. If cars with hydrogen cells were unsafe, that would show up. Plus, there are such vehicles on the road. If they started blowing up like Pintos, the same thing would happen as happened with the Pinto - the car would disappear and the manufacturer would take a hit.
     
  14. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    I was comparing the number of people killed by each. You'd have to take the number of cylinders into account. But there are probably millions out there. And only 17 people were killed by tank failures in one year. 30,000 people died in car accidents.

    I posted a link to the government stats on that earlier in the thread.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  15. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    But how much more dangerous would it be to drive with pressure tanks. As I said early in this thread, the idea of a house based hydrogen producing solar system (with pressure tanks) is a reasonable one. It will just take a lot for me to believe that driving around with a 4500 PSI hydrogen tank will be safe.
     
  16. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Are there any hydrogen cell cars that have gotten beyond prototype stage?
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You would need to do your comparison with the specific type of storage used in automobiles. And, that would need to include the structure of the automobile around the hydrogen storage unit.

    Tanks are made according to standards that can vary widely. The fuel cells made for cars can not be compared to tanks made for other applications.
     
  18. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    They can be made to fail in a relatively safe manner. The same has to be taken into account for excessive pressure and similar. They are designed to vent up, away from where anyone would be.

    You are driving around with a bomb in your car now - one capable of a great deal of destruction. And gas tanks do blow up and or catch fire, especially in accidents.

    I suspect you are not considering how dangerous gas tanks are. We choose to live with that risk, as well as 30,000 deaths a year. I doubt hydrogen would change those odds much either way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  19. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    I'll want to see it in action for a few years before I volunteer to be on the bomb squad. You buy one and drive around and I'll wait until the technology has matured. I don't like to be an early adopter of most technologies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes - more than one, as I was shocked to find!

    You can read about it on wiki.

    Toyota sales of Prius were 236,000 for the single year of 2012. While sales of Prius have tailed off due to other competitors with similar technology and lower fuel prices, I would say the total sales of 3,000 Mirais for all years combined suggests it is a trial balloon at this point.
     
  21. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Yup. Install a bank of high-pressure tanks like what's used for 2000 PSI nitrogen or CO2 and fill them with a high-pressure compressor. Oh boy. (To heat a house you would need to compress it or it would occupy too much space.)
     
  22. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    "New"? Didn't you notice the source of the hydrogen in the article?
     
  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Irrelevant. It compresses like nitrogen and is about as combustible as natural gas.
     
  24. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    It's not irrelevant. They are very small molecules and are difficult to contain. Hydrogen systems leak.

    I used to work with Helium systems for cooling MRI magnets. Even helium is very leaky.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
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  25. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Little known fact: Many decades ago, in some areas of the US, homes had hydrogen pumped in, instead of natural gas.
     

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