Solid state hydrogen technology could replace electric vehicles

Discussion in 'Science' started by Hoosier8, Aug 15, 2021.

  1. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Who cares what an agency force to join the marketing spin for the green new deal has to say? Provide a reference why their opinion is supposed to be gospel. Basic research...

    https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/battery-car-fires/

    No retraction required. Are you now going to retract your objection? Feel free to apologize at any point.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That vid answers your questions as to why this idea is just flat out horrible.

    Doing what the Toyota Mirai does with a hydrogen fuel cell is just WAY WAY more efficient.

    In general, internal combustion is horrible. It just happens to work well with petrol if you ignore the emissions, etc.

    Hydrogen is the equivalent of a battery in cars - a way of storing energy. To date, hydrogen as a battery is just not nearly as good as other battery types.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That article does not answer the question of whether EVs that are being sold are any more dangerous than the gas cars being sold in terms of fire risk.

    And, you are using your own very political opinion to disregard a reputable engineering firm's analysis of the comparative risk.
     
  4. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would say there are two fire risks with an ICE vehicle. First, an electrical fault. Second, in an accident, brake fluid is very flammable and ignites on a hot exhaust manifold if a brake line/reservoir breaks.

    With an EV, an awful lot is electrical and Lithium batteries, even in mobile phones, can burst into flames, spontaneously and especially if ruptured.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  5. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All I can say about hydrogen is just a repeat of pro EV'ers with Lithium cells, it's only at current technology and it will improve with falling prices. And my evidence is also zero.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There is also the petrol.

    But, the bottom line is what actually happens.

    The market is highly intolerant of products that burst into flames.

    And, companies don't like going out of business.
     
  7. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Was looking online about car fires, some interesting points in this link

    https://www.labovick.com/blog/electric-vehicle-fire-incidents-and-stats/

    The biggest interesting bit is, "Batteries make up about 40% of the value of an electric car."

    In a way, when you buy an EV, you've paid fuelage cost in advance.

    And the final paragraph of the link about life span of ICE and the future of EV, means I just get to use diesel until I get too old to drive, excellent.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Price comparisons should be for cars as a whole.

    You don't calculate what van you want based on what percent they spent on the engine. You look to compare capabilities of vans on the market and what they cost.

    However, your number does show that improvements in battery technology over time could make a difference.
     
  9. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just means, as the price of the body shell, seats and electric motor falls, the price of battery to vehicle cost percentage increases.

    So a £40,000 car has a £16,000 battery. When the other parts of the car fall by £4,000, the £16,000 battery is now 50% of the car.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2021
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I stand by what I said.
     
  11. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The shoe that fits one person pinches another.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong here.

    If someone can figure out hydrogen cars, I'm all in.

    Today, Toyota sells their hydrogen car - the Mirai.

    BUT, Toyota has committed to building a full range of fully electric vehicles, and they are choosing to have them NOT based on hydrogen. Surely you can see that as a significant statement.

    We'll know when hydrogen cars are real when some manufacturer of automobiles gets convinced.

    Until then, let's remember that electric vehicles of today are increasingly competitive and that fleet size is growing rapidly with almost all mainstream manufacturers well aware of this as the market direction of today.
     
  13. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What fits one person doesn't fit another, that's EV's for you.

    As for EV costs coming down, I decided to do some research. I actually found out that prices of EV's have increased, on numerous web sites. Even Tesla's increased.

    https://screenrant.com/tesla-model-3-model-y-price-increases-last-year/

    So when is this EV technology getting cheaper? Keeping in mind it's many thousands dearer, even after taxpayer grants.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2021
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is a marketing question. So, a significant part of this question has to do with supply and demand.

    I strongly suspect demand is increasing.
     
  15. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, demand increases as the 2030 deadline gets closer, so probably the time the government grants will have reduced to a point and then stopped.

    https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/econ...ernment-electric-car-grant-the-complete-guide

    Then you will get to enjoy tax per mile driven to make up for lost fuel duty.
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I do not even slightly believe that the "2030 deadline" is affecting purchase decisions today. Besides the fact that pretty much nobody thinks that far ahead, you would have to believe in a depreciation model that has no actual evidence or support. Beyond that, the purchases today seem to be more oriented to people who would buy an EV regardless of ANY change.

    I do agree that taxes for roads will be added to electric cars. This one is real, I'm sure.

    But, I doubt that UK automobile fuel tax is set by the cost of road work. Fuel tax in UK is clearly a policy decision involving multiple factors. And, my understanding is that it goes to the general fund, not to a separate transportation account, which is closer to what happens here, though not in every state.

    We in the US have FAR less fuel tax in total (federal plus state). And, that is the major funding for roads. In some states it is the total funding for transportation improvements, including public transit, not just roads.

    UK tax on fuel is £2.19/US gal.

    US federal tax on fuel is $.18 / US gallon.

    California has the highest state gas tax - $.68 / US gallon.

    MOST US states have state gas tax that is half of that or less. Arizona is $.19. Massachusetts is $.24.

    So, some form of duty will be added or roads funding will change in some other way. But, I strongly doubt it will be anything like what you pay in fuel taxes today in UK.
     
  17. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If vehicle tax was kept and spent on roads, UK roads would be paved in gold.

    Yes, high tax on petrol and diesel, less so on red diesel for agriculture etc.

    Also, there's vehicle excise duty, mainly based on emissions. My car and van are both £275 each, totals £550 a year.

    https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/driving-costs/car-tax

    How they would charge tax per mile on an EV must be down to software in the car. I imagine some kind of yearly excise duty might have to be part of it.
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    True.

    We have heating and agricultural levels of fuel oil tax, too - far less.

    And, we tend to have registration taxes paid yearly. It is a state tax, so the rate varies hugely.

    In California, which pretty strongly promotes EVs, the EV yearly tax is $100, while gas vehicles range from $25 to $175 depending on factors like vehicle value, type of registration (related to use type), etc.
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Bob Lazar build a corvette that runs on water converted to hydrogen, and the system is safe, not flammable as it is constructed, so he says

    They story starts at 1:57

     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    You know he's just a con man who has made a living on conspiracy theories, right?
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Videos of this engineer and hydrogen cars has been around for a LONG time.

    First of all, remember that this car runs on hydrogen, NOT water.

    He has worked on ways to produce hydrogen. However, I don't see any details on the cost of the hydrogen he produces in order to make comparisons to the cost of hydrogen from the many companies that sell hydrogen today. Does he make hydrogen cheaper than any of the many corporations that compete in that field of industry?

    Also, is a lack of information on the mileage performance he gets per unit of hydrogen supplied.

    As for his storage medium, I do not believe the NHTSA would support corporations building cars that have that store hydrogen in the trunk like that.

    By comparison, Toyota sells a hydrogen car today.

    That car demonstrates fuel costs that are not competitive.

    And, Toyota is moving forward with electric cars, but even with their experience they are NOT going forward with using hydrogen as an electricity storage medium - which is the ONLY function of hydrogen in a car. (The car uses electric motors, so the car uses hydrogen to make electricity for those motors, instead of having rechargeable batteries that power the motors.)

    I don't see evidence that this private enterprise has moved hydrogen cars forward enough to make that direction more attractive than it always has been.
     
  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    The car runs on water. That's what matters.
     
  23. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not. No such car has been made that works like that, it defies the laws of physics and is not real.

    Congratulations, you have been scammed. But like a great many people, you do not want to admit you were taken in, so simply continue to insist it is real. Unless you think some community College graphic arts major invented a device to power a car from water once decades ago, and could never get it to work ever again.

    The same reason why all of those "James Bond" SCUBA devices are scams.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
  24. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Of course it runs on hydrogen, but the source of supply is water, and a machine that separates the two molecules.

    As for the efficacy of it all, I don't know. AS a layperson, I thought it was interesting.

    I think the problem he discusses is access to hydride, the hydrogen storage medium, but you can't buy the stuff.

    It would take an act of congress to legalize the substance, in order for his cars to be economically viable, which I believe was his point.

    I think electric cares are the way the wind is blowing now.

    One guy on YouTube did a travel of some 500 miles with a Tesla spent $25.

    In CA, I would have spend $40 in my 50mpg car. Looks like it's cheaper than gas, but I do'nt know about the long term battery replacement issues, costs, etc.

    Aside from the cost, the fact that it is reducing our dependency on oil from terrorist countries, even if the cost were the same, is worth it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    It is impossible. It takes large amounts of electricity to use electrolysis to extract hydrogen from water. Far more than a car is capable of producing.

    Here is the beautiful thing about the metric system, it makes such conversions rather simple. A liter of pure water would have 2/3 of a liter of hydrogen, and 1/3 liter of oxygen. And it takes a 55 kWH to extract a kilogram of hydrogen. And no car is capable of producing that much electricity to produce enough hydrogen to power a vehicle. You would literally need a large generator to produce enough electricity to extract enough hydrogen to power the car, especially as electrolysis is only about 70% efficient. It literally takes more power to extract it than you could get by using it as fuel.

    Yet somehow, people still believe that old con game. But if you want, I am taking money from investors now because I have created a perpetual motion machine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021

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