Solutions to Automation

Discussion in 'Labor & Employment' started by Guest03, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    1936? WWII didn't 'officially' start until 1939, and even then there were few who thought the U.S. would end up getting pulled into it at the time.
    Coincidentally, 1936 was actually the same year the WPA was enacted. And as for the sudden spike in military spending from your chart in that year,
    that was ironically due to another set of New Deal era welfare spending, this time geared towards veterans via the 'Bonus Act'.
    ...Not to give too much credit to FDR for that one though, as he actually...also ironically,...attempted to veto it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjusted_Compensation_Payment_Act
    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1920_1940USb_11s1li011lcn_33f
    [​IMG]

    At any rate, all of that spending is sort of a moot point,...because as you've already alluded to,
    it doesn't hold a candle to the levels of spending seen in the years following 1940.

    [​IMG]
    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

    Um....why exactly do you say that?
    It makes perfect sense in my opinion,....that fewer people working,...means less stuff getting produced.....
    Am I missing something here??...

    -Meta
     
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually,...what I was saying was that it might be possible for a few individuals to get in, but that it would be highly unlikely for the Amish
    to accept every single person who ends up getting displaced by automation, and that even in the unlikely scenario in which they did attempt to accept everyone,
    that they would not have enough resources to support them all.

    True, but again, part of my point is that the folks who already have sufficient resources aren't going to be the ones wanting to join.
    At any rate, I do not think we as a society need to become majority Amish in order for us to solve any future issues related to mass automation.

    -Meta
     
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    .....Like I was saying....those with means who's needs and wants are satisfied by automation, will have no motivation to offer jobs to others (or anything else),
    regardless of how good ones design or solution is and regardless of what ideas or whatever else one offers up.

    Christopher Columbus didn't live in a world where all of ones needs and wants could be fully automated.

    Certainly, personal responsibility should play a role in the future though, just as it should always play a role here in the present,
    but at the same time, personal responsibility should never be used as an excuse to ignore the looming structural issues coming our way,
    nor should it be used to discredit the potential solutions to those issues.

    -Meta
     
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    ....or so you say....but then,...I suppose that is a discussion for another thread....

    If you agree that those were good things, then you can also agree that we shouldn't judge things based purely upon what sorts of nasty names people come up with to describe them,...right?

    -Meta
     
  5. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  6. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are veterans benefits part of military spending? If so the chart you have shown indicates that ~ 2/3 of military spending goes to veterans.

    Less business investment results in production decreases which lower employment - this reduction reduces economic growth. My statement (An economic growth reversal like that would not have occurred if some people were laid off.) was poorly worded - IIRC I was responding to reductions in government programs (don't have time to look back just now).
     
  7. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The King of Spain's needs and wants were pretty well covered. He still hired Chris. But again, Chris didn't go to him looking to be given a job. He presented him with an opportunity. And Ferdinand discovered he might want that new thing too.

    People are ambitious. If you find a way to give them everything they need and want, they will want something beyond that.




     
  8. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey, I wondered the same thing at first, as depending on country, sometimes it is,...and sometimes it isn't.
    As for our data-set, if you look at the second link I posted (re-posted below with subcategory removed)
    you'll notice that veterans spending is indeed classified as a subcategory of overall defense spending.
    There is another subcategory specifically labeled "Military defense", however, while there
    is a slight increase up from 1934, the 1936 spike clearly does not exist at this level.

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1920_1940USb_11s1li011lcn_30t

    Well, not all the time.....just for that "Bonus Act" year of 1936. That year, per the first link I posted in the last post,
    immediately following the passage of the "Bonus Act", veterans flocked to redeem their bonds for cash.
    Incidentally, their rushing to cash in their bonds also happens to explain why the 1936 spike was only a spike that went back down, and not a continued increase.

    -Meta
     
  9. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    We will soon see what happens when all of your fast food franchises become automated. They are already seeing a reduction in customers because people can no longer afford to spend almost $10 a meal for themselves.
     
  10. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The unintended consequence of increasing (much less having) the minimum wage is to overprice low productivity labor by price fixing resulting in the loss of jobs of those most in need of the labor experience. And to ultimately drive businesses to automation or over seas in order to maintain competitiveness and the ability to earn an acceptable profit for the business risk that business owners take. As you point out all consumers pay more than they should because of this price fixing and consequently have less to spend on other discretionary items. The entire economy produces less due to labor price fixing.
     
  11. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, before 1936 it is ~ 2/3 but then the military spending continues to increase while the veteran's spending does not.
     
  12. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I don't have any fast food franchises. It's not just automation, but progress in general, you are a "Progressive" aren't you? Technology has not only greatly reduced the physical human labour needed to be performed , but also greatly increased the productivity possible by a much less skilled worker. We are all consumers, and if you can't afford a $10 meal at a fast food franchise you are free to cook at home. The fast food franchises should be left free to adjust their prices and wages to whatever keeps them solvent, or to go out of business if they can't. No one is forced to eat at them nor is anyone forced to work at them. Choice is what makes us free. Inflation is not caused by businesses, but like all consumers something that causes us to react in ways that are in our best interests.
     
  13. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    Sure these business are free to do whatever they want but what I have noticed over the years is they are not nearly as full with customers as they used to be. A growing population means I should be observing the opposite. Bring in automation and they are going to empty.
     
  14. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    You might take into account that more competitors have opened businesses providing consumers with a much greater choice of where to take their business, and automation makes it much easier to adjust to the service demands by slowing down or increasing the speed of the machinery while maintaining the same workforce. A machine has a one time cost, and with the exception of repairs when it is running does not add any additional cost when it is not running, not to mention the fact that it can be put to work immediately when/if the need becomes necessary.
     
  15. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    How many more people are on welfare and ebt cards?

    Does the right have a problem with ebt cards being used at fast food places.
     
  16. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Service industry jobs are also being replaced by automation today.

    There's no source of income to provide the government subsidies for a person. Automation actually reduces the potential revenue for the government because it lowers the costs for goods and services.

    Automation provides more goods and services allowing for an even greater expansion of the population.
     
  17. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    The government did not solve all the people that lost their jobs to the foreign market, outsourcing, etc. What makes you think automation would work that further decrease the need for workers?
     
  18. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Add a tax on the automated equipment. My city does it as a form of business personal property tax.
     
  19. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    I agree people are ambitious, but there is a certain point when they peak. They realize they are not immortal, and accept contentment after they reach close to or even beyond their goals.

    Kings live longer than the peasants they oppress, so the rich like Donald Trump have the luxury of ambition for a longer time than the poor beneath them, who have smaller ambitions in mind like meeting their basic needs.
     
  20. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The human race has never ceased wanting more. I doubt it ever will.




     
  21. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    The more money businesses make from firing unskilled workers and replacing them with robots, must be redistributed by the government.

    Automation is the future of business, but they have to wait for the vacuum to be filled during the transition of unskilled workers to skilled workers.
     
  22. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    The human race may be immortal, but not the individual.
     
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  23. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Artificial Intellegence and Technology (AI&T) is a double-edged sword. It increases productivity creating more goods and more services while reducing the amount of labor and "skills" required for the production.

    By way of example the operator of a CNC 5-axis milling machine today requires fewer machinist skills than the machinist operating an old 3-axis Bridgeport in the past and that CNC milling machine can produce more accurate parts faster than the old 3-axis Bridgeport mill with a true machinist operating it.

    Above proposes a "net-zero" gain in employing AI&T and provides no incentive for enterprise to employ the AI&T that overall should be benefiting society by producing more goods and services. Why would an enterprise fund the AI&T if the profits from the use of the AI&T are taken away from the enterprise? It would make no financial sense effectively ending the advancement of the AI&T that should be benefiting society as a whole.

    There is a balance of course and historically we found this where organized labor could negotiate voluntary contracts with the owners/managers of enterprise. That's how the middle class evolved in the 1950's and 1960's when AI&T was making great strides in the manufacturing sector. As the number of jobs in manufacturing per capita were being reduced by AI&T the unions were able to negotiate higher compensation for the remaining jobs.

    The problem is that the per capita membership in unions peaked in 1954 and since 1970 the number of manufacturing jobs per capita has declined by about 40% in the US (and worldwide) without a corresponding increase in compensation for those remaining in the manufacturing sector.

    This is not just true in manufacturing but instead is true across the spectrum of employment. Compensation for labor has fundamentally stagnated, even declining in recent years, while productivity has been on a constant rise because of AI&T.

    It wasn't the government that best addressed the "sharing of the wealth" generated by AI&T but instead it was the power of organized labor that resulted in the distribution of that wealth being created by employing AI&T. The obvious problem is that "right-wing economics" that advocate for the owners of enterprise by nature oppose the workers and our laws since the late 1960's have consistantly moved towards disempowering the unions as opposed to empowering the unions.

    Favoritism for the "capitalist" over the "workers" has created with income inequality between the wealthy and the poor in America today. We don't need the government to "redistribute" the wealth but instead we need organized labor to negotiate the "distribution" of the wealth being created by the AI&T with the owners/managers of enterprise. That creates a win-win situation for both the owners of enterprise that fund the AI&T and the workers that would lose without the power to negotiate mutually agreeable contracts with the owners.
     
  24. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Any belief that the human race is immortal is virtually a religious belief because science is already warning that we're sowing the seeds of our own self-destruction by destroying the ecology and environment of the planet.
     
  25. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    As I previously mentioned Artificial Intelligence and Technology (AI&T) is a double-edged sword and the tax creates a negative financial influence that robs us of the benefits of the AI&T.

    We need to retain the positives while mitigating the negatives of AI&T. The last thing we want to do is impose a tax on the AI&T because that will reduce the employment and advancements of the AI&T resulting in fewer benefits for society.
     

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